Ask Lucas

[mace]

Superbud was taken off the market cause the manufacturer (Dutchmaster from south australia) "forgot" to mention the paclo on the label, but this is required with substances like paclo.
Paclo is used ie. for cotton etc, not for food crops.

[Green Supreme]

Careful LSP. No disrepect intended, but that is the same arguement I used to get from the diesel techs in the phone industry about PCBs.Now many of them men have passed from cancer. I''m not suggesting Paclo is that harmful, just the familiarity of what you are saying. Remember you come first, then your plantys. Peace GS

[FredFarts]

Summary Toxicity Information for Paclobutrazol
For detailed chemical information see the chemical detail page.
Note: Information for many chemicals is incomplete and may not be fully representative of effects on humans. Why?

Summary Toxicity Information
PAN Bad Actor
Chemical 1 Acute
Toxicity 2 Carcinogen Cholinesterase
Inhibitor Ground
Water Contaminant Developmental or
Reproductive Toxin Endocrine
Disruptor
Not Listed Slight Unclassifiable No

Indicates high toxicity in the given toxicological category. Indicates no available weight-of-the-evidence summary assessment. For additional information on toxicity from scientific journals or registration documents, see the "Additional Resources for Toxicity " section of the chemical detail page.
1. PAN Bad Actors are chemicals that are one or more of the following: highly acutely toxic, cholinesterase inhibitor, known/probable carcinogen, known groundwater pollutant or known reproductive or developmental toxicant. NOTE! Because there are no authoritative lists of Endocrine Disrupting (ED) chemicals, EDs are not yet considered PAN Bad Actor chemicals.
2. The acute toxicity reported on this page is of the pure chemical ingredient only and may not reflect the acute toxicity of individual pesticide products. To view acute toxicity of individual products, click on 'View Products' link in the 'Chemical Identification' section above.

http://www.pesticideinfo.org/Detail_...Rec_Id=PC34826

This would be given to plants for a short period of time in about week 2 of flower then flushed out.

I wouldnt drink my res water before or after I used it. It says its Unclassifiable as a Carcinogen.

Unclassifiable IARC: Unclassifiable

U.S. EPA: Not classifiable as to human carcinogenicity, Unclassifiable, Not classifiable, Not amenable to classification, Can not be determined, Data are inadequate for an assessment of human carcinogenic potential. This ranking also includes chemicals ranked as "Not Classified" and "Deferred."
CA Proposition 65: No parallel category
U.S. NIH: No parallel category

IMO the plant would take it in and be done with it by the time of harvest. I am wob here or what?

Not looking for a fight here just lookin to learn.

[Strawberrycough]

Hi Lucas,

What do you think of adding carbohydrates to a hydro system? do you think they are all the same? AN Carboload, Botanicare Sweet, Nutrilife Heavy wieght, sugar and molasses...

thanks in advance.

[ntstephenson]

Obviously I'm not Lucas, but I hope I can help.

Sugary solutions have NO place in hydro systems. Molasses is beneficial in soil, as it is like crack for the beneficials that break down complex compounds into plant available compounds by providing carbon and cheap energy. In hydro nutrient regimens (except metanaturals) the nutrient source has already been processed, either chemically or biologically, into plant available form, so there is no need to cultivate bacteria to break down nutes. Also, there is thousands of times less surface area for bacteria to colonize in hydro systems, so even if bacteria are needed, there isn't enough room for anywhere near the populations as you see in soil. So, where you might add one Tbs of unsulfered molasses to a five gallon soil pot, an equivalent application to hydro would be one Tbs in a 5000 gallon reservoir. Because there isn't enough surface area to properly break down the carbs, and because plants don't take carbohydrates in through the roots, the sugar will remain in solution and literaly gum up the works, clogging medium and creating localized anaerobic zones. This goes beyond unnecessary, and delves into the range of destructive.

Second, please shy away from the notion that nutrients are the ticket for easy gains. Imagine the plant as a biological energy plant that converts raw materials into plant matter and stored energy. The plant's inputs consist of 90% light energy, water, and CO2, with 10% everything else. (These figures are guesses to show relative importance, and are not scientifically based.) The great revalation that Lucas has been trying to share for so many years is that contrary to what most people think, when growing indoors, one can finally control the 90% of what a plant needs: light, CO2, and H2O. If one were to provide an average concentration of all other elements (100, 100, 200, 60 ppm of N,P,K,Mg in cannabis), then you may completely eliminate nutrients as a variable in plant growth and concentrate on things that matter: light, water, and CO2.

In summary, molasses is for soil, not hydro. If you wish, you may certainly purchase overpriced sugar solutions at a hydro store, or you can purchase unsulfered molasses at a grocery store or feed store for soil grows only.

Hope this helps, and keep it simple ...

[Lucas]

> feelings and experiances with Humbolts Bushmaster. i have a stretch problem.

no experience, please post yours

the only person I know who used it, swore they would never again. The plants were very fluffy, and very low potency, but then, that gardener has issues that go way beyond all the additives they try

> What do you think of adding carbohydrates to a hydro system?

no experience, Im anti additive

but, guru pH said it causes slime
slime bad

thanks to anyone who posts to answer questions like this

and thanks also to anyone who posts experience, good or bad, with additives like these

Lucas AntiAdditive

moral
if its not working, adding more stuff to the res wont help... fix the environment

[kindlydank]

I'm glad to see you're still here despite the drama. Jeez, are there ANY pot boards left that aren't in constant turmoil these days??

Sorry, that wasn't my question...

My friend's friend, the same one I spoke of before , is ready to try hydro after several years of his BOG-style organic method. He says he's tired of inconsistent potting mixes and ferts. Sometimes Earth Juice even SMELLS different from one bottle to the next.

His new grow will be a 2'lx2.5'wx4'h 250w veg area (his previous bloom box) and a 3'lx4'wx8'h 600w bloom area. Thanks to studing your brilliant posts, he KNOWS he won't be able to keep his res cool enough for DWC in the 80 degree bloom room, so he's thinking ebb/flow.

He knows you think a 2 week veg under the veg light and 1 week of bloom wattage before 12/12 is the way to go, but that's for a lot of plants and it would also leave his veg area vacant (aside from moms) most of the time. He's VERY concerned about plant counts, so what would be the most efficient strategy to utilize the veg and bloom areas? If fewer plants vegged the entire time the bloom area was occupied (60 days), then he'd be able to put much larger plants in to the bloom area. How accomodating would e/f be to the longer veg/larger plant situation? If he started the clones in 5" square pots of hydroton and vegged them 60 days, wouldn't they be HORRIBLY root bound by the time they go to bloom?? Having never done this, he has no clue what to expect.

Sorry about the long winded post and vague questons...!!

Thanks!!
kd

[Lungus]

To keep the plant counts way down, but utilize a large area, SCROG is the way to go. If you don't know what I'm talking about it translates to Screen of Green. The Idea is to train the plants horizontily along a screen, tucking all the branches and leaves underneath until the screen is filled, or, if using plants that stretch quite a bit, partly filled, then trigger to flower. This way you can put a few plants in large pots and fill a large area with lots of budsites at an even distance from the bulbs. I have never done it on a large scale. I've screened in a couple of pots to contain stretchy plants when growing alongside shorter varieties but nothing big. I have read threads from scroggers and they all say it's a lot of work, but the rewards can make it worthwhile. Also, as stands to reason, it is best to work with strains that are at least somewhat open branching rather than strictly single cola dominant. I would use something more open than chikenwire to screen in the top though, to make it eaier to tuck in branches and leaves. A homemade screen made out of garden ties or good strong cord making squares 3" or so will work fine.

[Lucas]

> He's VERY concerned about plant counts, so what would be the most efficient strategy to utilize the veg and bloom areas?

some options I would look at

1. If you can fit 8 plants in 1 gallon pots (or 5" pots) under the 250w

2. bloom 6 plants in 2 Gallon buckets of rox under the 600w. these plants should have had 4 weeks of veg time in 1 gallon pots, under the 600w, then repotted when put to bloom. they should be topped once 2 weeks into veg, and reduced to 4 main branches, by removing bottom 3 branch pairs

3. keep one or two moms, in 2 gallon buckets (or 1 gallon) under the 250w until 2 weeks into bloom on the 600w side

4. take cuttings from the moms at 2 weeks into 12/12, root cuts any way you know how, allow 2 weeks for rooting phase.

5. Discard moms, plant best 8 rooted cuts into 5" or 1 gallon pots under 250w veg light, for 4 weeks of veg, then bloom the best 6, repotted to 2 gallons of rox.. hold back the other 2 plants as moms..


> How accomodating would e/f be to the longer veg/larger plant situation?

EF floods to about 4" depth. when using larger pots, build a drip ring, to put on top of the grorox of the 2 gallon pots.

> If he started the clones in 5" square pots of hydroton and vegged them 60 days, wouldn't they be HORRIBLY root bound by the time they go to bloom??

yes
but, the first 2 weeks of rooting dont count as veg time
and, if you delay taking clones until day 14 of bloom, thats a total dealy of 4 weeks into harvest, leaving just 4 weeks of vegging.. which could be just right

Lucas

Hey Lucas,
I'm using the formula which mre420 calculated for me using that excell spreadsheet for nutrient calculations. In my SCW system the pH has crashed from the 5.8 I began with down to 3.8 (ouch!!). It has remained stable at 5.8 in my other system which is an E&F for a couple of weeks.

I flushed the SWC with water and refilled with fresh nutes at 5.8 and within a couple of days, BAM 3.8 again. So, I flushed better with water and made the tray level very deep (about 3") instead of the regular 1/2" and let it flush w/o nutes for a few days and the pH remained stable at about 6.6 So, I replace the nutes again and the pH dropped after a couple of days again.

Do you have any idea what is happening? And even more importantly, how to fix it? I'm guessing that the "almost finished" plants are sucking down Calcium (or something) which sends the pH down. Does that sound reasonable? Should I just add back a calcium source until the pH comes back up to about 6.0 ? What calcium cource would that be, Calcium Carbonate or Calcium Chloride or....? Or I just guessing hot air ?!?

Any ideas?


Thanks,
Glass Man

[Indica Sativa]

Don't know if this helps ya at all... its always seemed to work for me...

Quote:

Hydro cheat sheet
EcPPM goes up, PH goes down=plants require less nutes.
EcPPM goes down, PH goes up=Plants require more nutes
EcPPM stable, PH goes up=Equilibrium=Good thang

[mace]

Indica Sativa,

Quote:

Hydro cheat sheet
EcPPM goes up, PH goes down=plants require less nutes.
EcPPM goes down, PH goes up=Plants require more nutes
EcPPM stable, PH goes up=Equilibrium=Good thang

i have to disagree with this.

ime, in a stable system with healthy plants (not fresh clones and not towards the end of the lifecycle), EC will always rise and pH will fall, plants take in more water than nutes under normal conditions.
This is why we top with water

[Indica Sativa]

Quote:

Originally Posted by mace

Indica Sativa,


i have to disagree with this.

ime, in a stable system with healthy plants (not fresh clones and not towards the end of the lifecycle), EC will always rise and pH will fall, plants take in more water than nutes under normal conditions.
This is why we top with water

It is meant to be a very, very general guideline. Not an all knowing answer to hydro problems.

I usually only have pH problems when I've screwed up. Otherwise it has always reacted as Mace says, ppm goes up from evaporation/traspiration while pH goes down.

I'm just a bit stumped on this "crashing" issue. In the past it's only gone as low as 3.8 it I fucked up and added too much acid ( aka pH down) while trying to lower it on purpose. I didn't add any acid to the resevoir it just auto-crashed.

Btw, I just decided to stop worrying about it and went ahead and harvested. The trics never turned amber, but only a few were still clear and this is by far my heaviest yield to date !! The colas are so large and dense that I'm concerned that I won't be able to dry them properly unless I cut them apart. I've got a dehumidifier and the temps have dropped so I think they'll be okay. This is a much better "problem" than dealing with that crazy pH issue. It is true that "Success comes from persistance."

[mace]

ime at the end of flower the pH gets low
3.8 sounds very very low tough
i've seen values as low as 4.5 with tap water that i pH'ed down way too much (takes some time for the full effect).
Calcium carbonates, an alkaline pH buffer (created by calcium in the tap water that reacts with CO2 when air is bubbled trough, again, this takes a few hours) that drives the pH towards 8ish, brakes down at a pH around 5.1, then the pH takes a nosedive to 4.5ish.

glass, pH control is important, good source water and good nutes that are buffered for your water source is the key to a stable reservoir, and an appropriate sized res of course
ideally, if your pH was too high, you should add more nutes, since nutes are acidry, the stronger the nutes, the lower the pH and vice versa.
pH adjustment can be done, but too often and it will screw your nutes. If you have to correct the pH every day or second day, then there is something wrong and needs to be fixed.

peace,

mace

I've never had anything like this happen before. My resevoirs are plenty large, 100+gallons for my 4x8 SWC and 45 gallons for my 4x4 E&F. My well water is good, 70-80 ppm & 7.0-8.0 pH (don't know why the numbers vary at different times).

I've been using the same brand of nutes for 4-5 years. I don't think it's the problem, but I do admit tinkering with the mix. But as I said the same formula has been holding at exactly 5.8 for about 2 weeks in my E&F, so that confirms to me that the formula isn't unstable.

It's got to be something about the plants, either their age/flower cycle or perhaps the strain has an effect...I don't know it's name.

I'll be filling the grow tunnel up with new clones in a day of two for a second run or the same strain. I'll be using the same formula start-to-finish and will see how it goes. Btw, this run I'll begin under Metal Halides and switch to HSP after the 3rd week of 12/12 hoping to avoid stretching.

peace,
Glass Man

[Lucas]

> EcPPM goes up, PH goes down=plants require less nutes.
> EcPPM goes down, PH goes up=Plants require more nutes

I agree, these are good rules of thumb, assuming the readings are taken after topping off the reservoir with water. Taking readings when the res is not full, confuses everything.

> EC will always rise and pH will fall

with all due respect to mace, and I have great respect for him,
that is only true (Ec rises, pH falls) in a reservoir that has lost water, and is not topped off

to avoid the confusion caused by taking readings from dehydrated reservoirs, I recommend that Ec and pH readings Only be taken from a Full res, After it has had the water added back that was lost to transpiration

the Ec and pH of a dehydrated res should not be used as a basis for adjustments, Ec and pH readings should be taken from a Full res, and only then can we know if Ec and pH have changed significantly

as far as the pH crashing to 3.8 at end of bloom (assuming Ec did not rise above 2.0), that can be caused by roots that are dying.. if you have any brown colored roots, that was probably what was happening... otoh, if Ec went up to 3.0, it would make sense that the pH fell through the floor

> this run I'll begin under Metal Halides and switch to HSP after the 3rd week of 12/12 hoping to avoid stretching.

it will probably also reduce your yield by about 15%, since MH has 30% less total lumens than HPS (an you only intend to use MH for part of the bloom cycle)

Lucas

[mace]

howdy Lucas

you're right as usual, i was reffering to a res thats not been topped of, thats the reason for the note on topping.
In a non topped res the EC and pH is resembling more liklely a higher EC/lower pH, whereas in a topped res, the missing (taken in by the plant) water volume is replaced(100% water and whatever is left of the nutes), leading usually to a situation with a low EC/high pH.
I do concur, the EC/pH values of an untopped res are rather useless, only the tendancy is reveiled.

Thanks Lucas,
That would explain the situation. My roots were looking a little tan and unhealthy, but I was thinking that the 3.8 pH had caused it.... rather than being caused by it. So, neither my nute formular nor myself were to "blame". That's good.

I'm only planning to use the MH in the early stages of flowering, hoping to promote tighter internode spacing and reduce stretching. Last year with the first crop using my SWC tunnel I began under 2 MH400's and installed 3 HPS400's after they arrived, about halfway into 12/12. My SOG crop finished at 18" or less & I'd switched to flowering at 10-12", even my Golden Haze (A Gold x Haze) pure sativa stayed nice and compact. Ever since then I just used the HPS's and stretch & branching have been a problem each crop. I'd blamed the Moon phase and through about giving them too much Nitrogen, but I'm really thinking now that it was the Lighting. I am presently using the theory on my 4x4 E&F growing sativas, and so far it is appearing to be working. I just switched over to HPS last week, and the internodes are very tightly spaced and go almost to the soil-line and the plants are about 14" tall. I really think I have solved my stretch problems.
How do most growers, especially SOGers, deal with stretch and branching? Pistilwipping & pruning seem like a poor way to deal with plants which get to tall, but at that point there's not much else you can do. I really think my yields will increase because a few big plants won't shade out their smaller neighbors. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I'm thinking about growing at the moment.
Please clue me in if any of you think I'm missing something. And I'll keep you posted with how it works out in the end.


Thanks,
GM

i got a qustion for lucas. i am running a 6 gallon swc with 2 ak47s and useing floranova bloom nute with plain tap water with a 40 ppm @7 6.8 ph rez temp are between 74 to 66 f. no sigh of root rot my proublem is the ph it keep droping below 4.0 and i dont know why it didnt do this last grow using the same nutes i made a fresh bach saterday nite and let it sit for 24 hours and check the tds and ph and i got 910 ppm @7 ph 4.0 so i added ph up to i got 5.8 will i just check again now i got 1040 ppm and 3.0 some thing and it didnt need to be top off. my ph keep dropping i got one plants thats about dead the ohter seems to me showing signs of low cal and i am one week from harvest didnt have this proublem last grow is it possible my nutes are bad or can my liguide tester be bad or am i doing some thing wroung i ish i had some battrys for my cam so i could show ya what my babys are doing.

Sounds like the same thing I had going on. My roots weren't nasty sick, just a little tan and a little dried out looking. The pH kept crashing, just like yours. I just decided to flush with very weak nutes (about 350 ppm) for an extra couple of days and then harvested them, it was their time!

I'm a happy farmer. Already got a new round of clones under 24 hours drinking some sweet 500ppm mix and looking happy. Yield is all about keeping the ball rolling...


peace,
GM

[Lucas]

> and 3.0 some thing and it didnt need to be top off. my ph keep dropping i got one plants thats about dead

a dead plant has dead roots. dead roots drop pH

> why is it lower now

TDS 1040 will have a lower pH than TDS 640

> useing floranova bloom

that stuff is pretty thick

it is not unusual for it to be a bit hard to measure, and some early doses may be thinner than towards the end of the bottle

trust your TDS, its normal for pH to go low as TDS goes up, but most of all, its normal for pH to go low when there is a dead plant

Lucas

well from what i can tell from the above is my ppm are on the high side so i am backing down to 640 ppm and see what happens. but funny is every time i mix up a batch of fresh nute and check the ph its all ways 5.0 before i add it to the rez the last grow same nutes same tap water i had a ph of 6.0 why is it lower now my tap ph is the same thats why i was thinking my nute could be bad

I don't know the answer to that.

Are you sure that your tap's pH is the same each time? My well water's pH seems to drift between 7.2 - 8.0 , usually it's on the higher end of that range.

After I harvested this time I flushed the system even better than usual, just to be sure that nothing had accumulated which could affect the pH or the nute ratio. Maybe you've got something acidic which has accumulated somewhere in your system.

As far as wondering about your nutes, if they aren't organic I doubt they went bad. But maybe you didn't shake the jug well enough and some settling caused the ratio to get outa' wack, could that happen? Anyway, why don't you mix a batch and just let it bubble for a few days without any plants to see if it's stable by itself.

Didn't you also mention pH measuring problems? I thought you said you pH meter needs new batteries, and you're just using the indicator drops right now. If that's correct, get some batteries and calibrate your meter and then test it against your drops, measured in good white lighting. And, btw, if your pH meter is one of those Hanna Checkers that could be a problem too. I had one, actually a couple of those, and they aren't very dependable over time. "Time" is quite relevant when you think about it!!


Peace,
GM

man i flush the crap out of my system and added fresh nutes and i shaked the hell out of the bottle as well. i got a hanna prep ph checker but i am out of the 7.01 callabrating sloution the battrys are fine but it has never has been stable will shall see what it does tonite i drop the ppm down to 700 and ph up to 5.9 i am hoping its just cuz the mix is to hot but i was thinking i read some where that floranova when mixed with tab water gives around 6.0 ph wich it did that the frist 2 grows now a frsh mix with plain tab water of 40 ppm and 7.0 ph i end up with lower than 5.o right off the bat. i have all so let it sit for 24 hours with a air stone in it and still had to ph up it to 5.8 so with a liquide tester it all ways truns bright red when i test for ph before added it to the rez

what i cant under stand is i got 2 plants in the same rez .plant number one leafts trun yellow and had puprle stems wile plant number 2 looked healthy that happen right after i swiched to the bloom nutes all was good when useing the grow nutes but soon 90%of the leafts on plant number one drop and plant number 2 starting getting yellow dots on all the sun leafts wich soon grew bigger now for yellow spots and brown stop on most of the leafts wich sounds to me i got ph lock up the buds on plant one are very very small with only green leafs on the bud with yellow tips she is growing very slowly wile plant 2 has very nice think buds but do you think i should use ro water on my next grow ? or should i try a diffrent brand of nutes right now not to worrie about it cuz next week they coming down any ways i jst dont want to make this mistake on my next grow. ummmmmmmmmmmm i was just thinking plant number one was my mother plant and she was all most a year old when i pull her from the single bubbler and at that time i did have slimy roots plant number 2 was a clone of hers wil check the roots agin in a few hours when the light come back on. thanks for the info lucas