Ask Lucas

[herbtastik]

great info lucas thanx again...maybe ill try a new medium...but its hard to teach a old dog new tricks...

[Indica Sativa]

Quote:

note the Canna Coco Bloom recipe profile, it is about a 33% dilution of the 8ml GH Micro, plus 16 ml per gallon of GH Bloom formula.. (but with more Nitrogen).. Maybe medium based nutes are intentionally weak, so they accumulate in the pot?

Lucas, how much FloraNovaBloom is needed to equal Canna's Coco Bloom forumula? I don't see the logic in spending the money on a 33% dilution of something I already have. Is there something I am not understanding in this situation? I just don't want to run into silly deficiencies... (btw - I am making the switch to B'Cuzz coco mix - might make a diary...) Thanks.

[Lucas]

> much FloraNovaBloom is needed to equal Canna's Coco Bloom forumula?

about 2ml/gallon of FNB

> I just don't want to run into silly deficiencies... (btw - I am making the switch to B'Cuzz coco mix)

Canna is notorious for Mg deficiency, and the recommend adding epsom. FNB will not be Mg deficient.

disclaimer
coco has issues with locking up P and K , canna coco comes preloaded with extra P and K, I dont know if BCuzz is different in that regard

but, yes, you can feed with 2ml/gal of FNB at EVERY irrigation,and it will not cause deficiency (or you can water with plain water every 2 irrigations, then on the 3rd watering use 6ml/gal FNB

there may be other coco specific problems related to overwatering, but, you can certainly use FNB with Coco

Lucas

[Lucas]

> nutes to use in coco/perlite mix?

the same as you use in your current setup

I dont recommend changing nutes when changing grow styles

my personal preference at this time is to FloraNovaBloom, over GH Flora or PBP. The FNB has everything the 0-8-16 Flora formula does.

though many people love PBP, I find it lower in N, P, and Mg than GH products

when changing mediums, though I would not change nutes, I would change irrigation frequency, to adapt to the difference in the amount of time it takes for denser mediums to dry out

iow, dont overwater, and dont overfeed

hth
Lucas

The amount of perlite you mix in with the coco will determine how often you water. If your watering often or with a large amount at one time, you need to adjust the ppm/tds of your feed.

From reading your other posts (oldsog) I see you live somewhere hot. A quick way to kill your plants is watering with a high nutrient content water. It will put your root zone in low 4's ph wise.

You would be better off feeding less, more often.
Coco hold nutrients very well. Unlike the Hydroton you are used to using.

I suggest listening to the person that gave you those buckets..


GG

[Lucas]

> are you past testing it and stick with a straight 8ml per gal?

I always always always use a pH, TDS and temperature meter, I have a Hanna HI98129 that I love.

8ml tends to be too strong, 6ml is closer to what gets a 2,0EC, 1400ppm@.7 conversion

notice the advice I gave above, was for 6ml, not 8

> If your watering often or with a large amount at one time, you need to adjust the ppm/tds of your feed.

very interesting implications in that comment

would you explain more what you mean... does it go to how much total nutes are being offered...

iow, 6ml per gallon with a total volume of 5 gallons of irrigation liquid, is half as much as 6ml per gallon for a 10 gallon mix

are you saying that if the plants were happy before using 5 gallons a day, and you change to a more porous medium, so your irrigation volume doubles to 10 gallons a day, then you should still only use a total of 30ml of nutes?

I think you may be onto something very important, the Total nutes used per crop..

thanks!
Lucas

Oldsog grow area sounds like a true gardeners challenge:

High Heat, and Low Humidity. This setup will cause maximum transpiration. Using coco in 3 gal buckets, If he feeds 1300ppm every time he waters (daily) they will be in total lockout in a week. I

[Lucas]

> If he feeds 1300ppm every time he waters (daily) they will be in total lockout in a week.

I agree, totally

nobody should water dense mediums with 1300 ppm every day

first of all, dense mediums dont necessarily dry out every day, it depends whether the grower knows how to water enough for the plants one day needs. It is not correct to just flood the pot every time.

for example, a 6 inch clone in a 5 gallon pot of coco, wont use as much water as a 3 foot plant in the same pot..

the grower should not keep the pot wet for more than 24 hours, so hes going to have to learn how to handwater the right quantity of water

lets then try to figure out how many milliliters of nutes the plant can use per week

GG has determined the total nutes per crop, per 1k of light and per 40 gallons of res, to be 40 ounces of PBP.

using that 40 ounces per 1k, lets back into how much nutes to use per week. for ease of math, say its an 8 week crop, so the 1k will transpire and photosynthesize at a rate that would be supported by 5 ounces of nutes per week. Now we have the goods!

5 ounces of nutes per week is 150ml of PBP per week. Regardles whether the total water per week changes, the total nutes per week should stay the same

for example, a weekly water use of 15 gallons. You put the 150ml of pbp into the 15 gallons, and use that to water with for the week... am I making sense yet?

or, say you only mix up 5 gallons, 3 times a week, how much PBP should you put in? 50ml of PBP per 5 gallons... are you with me yet/still?

now we go to coco with 50% perlite, and suddenly our water use is 30 gallons per week. Remember though, that we still only use 150ml of nutes.

so now if you mix up 5 gallons of nutes at a time, with a 30 gallon a week usage, you only put 25ml of PBP into the 5 gallons, but it happens 6 times per week..

at least, that is how I interpret GG's comments about crop life nutes usage, and changing water usage per crop, affected by how porous the medium is, and how hot and dry the room is.

> I’m saying that Hydroton and Coco Coir are totally different mediums.

excellent point.

it is the difference in how fast those mediums dry out, that would make a change in the total water used per week.

but, the nutes used per week should stay the same, if I get your drift

GG is absolutely right, you cant use the same nutrient recipe in ml/gal for ebb flow, as you need when watering a medium that will be accumulating the nutrients...

so I was misleading when I told OS that he could use the same nutes, he can use the same brand, but he has to use a different ml/gallon, a lower TDS per watering

when I wrote this:
> you can feed with 2ml/gal of FNB at EVERY irrigation,and it will not cause deficiency (or you can water with plain water every 2 irrigations, then on the 3rd watering use 6ml/gal FNB

I was envisioning a scenario where the plants get watered with 400ppm water, every other day.

It would definitely be bad to water with 1300ppm every day in pure coco.

hth
Lucas

[BlueCelisWhite1]

My lastest on trying to cut corners with Lucas.

I have a couple plants in 25 gal DWC that I tried to cut corners on by adding back 0-8-16/gal. that ended up with some fried plants.

I never really attempted to addback with nutes whether it was 1/3 strength or full. I always added back with straight ph's water and dumping the rez when I achieved initial volume or close to it. Then I dumped and started new rez with 950 ppm target.

I went into trying the addback when my rez would drop from 950ppm to the 700's. I found that I wasnt able to achieve the original target ppm of 950's with 1/3 strength nute addback. I havnt educated myself enough on the art of nute addbacks enough to understand how to achieve original target ppm.

What I have learned though is that adding back at 100% nute strength to achieve target ppm is not the way to do it. So in the end Ive learned to either stick with what works like adding back only ph'd water and dump rez or understand the correct addback process.

Can someone help clear 1/3 strength addbacks to me plz and thx?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lucas

5 ounces of nutes per week is 150ml of PBP per week. Regardles whether the total water per week changes, the total nutes per week should stay the same

do you really want a constant tds thru the grow? i like GG's idea about not feeding the stretch and then making up for it when the pistils really start packing on.

then again, i could just be high....ate the last firecracker and hit a bag of OS's SSH....pretty good state of mind actually.

later y'all,
LO

[Lucas]

> I went into trying the addback when my rez would drop from 950ppm to the 700's. I found that I wasnt able to achieve the original target ppm of 950's with 1/3 strength nute addback.

that makes sense, you probably were just keeping it in the 700's that way...

if instead you had used 1/3 addback from the beginning, you could have ended up closer to 950

here is another option for you.

Instead of dumping the res, like youre used to, at the point when you get down to 700ppm, add enough nutes to bring it back up to 950, all at once.

But, you cant add straight nutes to a DWC. You should pump out ALL of the water in your FULL reservoir and add nutes to bring it up to 950. Make a note of how many milliliters of nutes it takes to do that. It will be the same the next time.

From then on, whenever your res would have gotten dumped, pump it out into a mixing res that has no plants in it, add the nutes as before, to bring back to 950ppm, refil the plant res with the "renewed" nutes, and continue like that until harvest.

or, a variation
use 1/3 strength addback, but also, at the point when you would have dumped, renew the nutes to 950ppm

for whatever light size you are using, if 1/3 is too low, you can work up a little, try 1/2 strength, to get closer to maintaining your 950 target for the life of the crop, without ever having to pump the res out to dump or add nutes.

does that make some sense?

> do you really want a constant tds thru the grow?

it would not be constant. in that example nutes were added once a week

the problem of how to handwater, in OS's example, coco, and not accumulate nutes, is not an issue in ebb flow, nft, aero, dwc, which are self flushing

> i like GG's idea about not feeding the stretch and then making up for it when the pistils really start packing on.

GG's idea works for a large reservoir, but OS cant pour such strong nutes onto his handwatered pots... he has to deliver the nutes in stages that do not exceed the max TDS the plants can handle at any one time.

its a continuum between feeding every day, every week, every 4 weeks, and so on. But the main problem Im focusing on, is how OS can water coco, without overfeeding.

I think GG is right, you cant use the same nutes recipe in ml/gal for coco, as for grorox. You end up using the same Total nutes though.. :-)

But even that factor is confounded by the differences in total water volume used, a function of medium and climate.. so GG is again right to point out that watering with 1/3 could be too much, at times when it is very hot, and the plants are using more water during a hot summer than during a cold winter.

at least, thats my take on it so far, what do you think?


Lucas

i think that firecracker's kickin' my ass.

carry on.

LO

[BlueCelisWhite1]

Hey Lucas

Ya it makes sense but is as clear as mud if you know what I mean. It all comes down to the learning curve.

Adding full strength addbacks didnt cause immediate problems I say it took 2 weeks before there was a sign of a problem but it took days to fry alot of the upper leaves especially all the cola leaves. Little leaves where sparred but it was the bigger older upper most leaves that dried out curled in on themselves and up. So Im thinking the 1000 hps and full strength addbacks over ferted. PH always stayed within range so it must of either locked out or over nitrated them I guess.

I have been meaning to get a pump to bilage the water from my tubs instead of transfering the lids and plants to empty tubs and then dumping the rez.'s. Its a bitch and somehting I must simplify.

thx for the info and suggestions

[trayeasy]

I as just ondering if your formula would work with (advanced nutrient sensigrow a&b)?

peace up

BCW....add back would be roughly 0-3-6 so when you do add back, try the 3ml p/g of micro and 6ml p/g of bloom.

should bring your pH right back into place as well.

LO

[Lucas]

> I as just ondering if your formula would work with (advanced nutrient sensigrow a&b)?

Advanced has their own way of doing things, follow their directions

I dont have a Lucasized version for their A&B.. although Advanced does make a green purple and pink bottled nute that is a copy of GH, but with some higher quality ingredients..

you could go that way, if you want to use Advanced products

how is the sensigrow working for you?

their program tends to be geared towards handwatered soilless medium, is that how your system operates? iow, are you handwatering pots of sunshine mix, or are you in hydro..?

Lucas

[The Cannarchist]

Thanks Lucas.

AF uses AN's stuff and likes it but he say's to mix it @ 750 ppms if your plants normally like 1k ppms. (Sorry, I don't know the conversion #)

[Lucas]

> would the 36 plants out yield 9 plants

maybe, depends on the rest of the system elements. running 36 plants is an entirely different infrastructure than hand watering a 5 gallon pot of medium.

> which would yield more?

let me put it this way, 36 will yield more than 9 IF both are ebb flow.

otoh, 9 can yield more, if they are given enough veg time, and are in 5 gallon pots.

or, it could be a wash..

if 36 plants average half an ounce each, thats 18 ounces, or, if 9 plants average 2 ounces each, thats the same 18 ounces

so I guess it depends how much yield the system currently supports

what is the current yield and plant count for this 600watter?

if its under 12 ounces, try more veg time, OR higher plant numbers..

its a trade off, high numbers, less veg time, low numbers, more veg time

if you study LO's post on his sytem, you will see he puts a LOT of emphasis on the condition of his moms, the size of his cuts, AND he vegges under bloom wattage for a few days too.

All those things are taking him to big yields, with low plant numbers.

when you change plant numbers, everything else changes too, cloning area size and lighting requirements, mom support area size and lighting requirements, irrigation system, pot size, etc.

If your goal is to increase yield, tell us what your baseline is, so we can tell if you already are doing as well as could be hoped. Give me yield per lamp, and how many days of bloom time.

If your system is already dialed, and the yield is not enough medicine, the only other avenue is to add more light.

A baseline yield of 12 ounces every 50 days should be possible with a 600w, with just 6 plants..

I like 100 watts per plant, its a personal preference.. Focus on keeping the plants health optimized at every stage, mom, cutting, cloning, vegging, And blooming.

to keep plants at optimum health, requires Air Conditioning if ambient temps are over 80F

hth
Lucas

[ditto hobbs]

Hello everyone,
I've been hangin around here reading and I really like the vibe here, you guys all seem cool and have good attitudes : )

I have a few questions for Lucas, or anyone who would like to pitch in their 2 cents.

I'm running a 2x2 EF table with rockwool/hydroton in 5'' netpots with a 16 hole cover (rockwool is not fully submerged in hydroton). My plants are 1 week old from seed, and are just growing their second set of true leaves. also, they are under a 400watt HPS along side some older organic soil plants.

my questions...
Is it okay to run the lucas formula with these plants this small?
I'm using PBP at the moment at 400ppm @7
would it be okay to switch to the 15ml Bloom/5ml Calmag now?

Also, I'm interested in EF now because of the fact that high res temps wont effect my plants, my res runs at 79F ! it's very hot and dry here 35%humidity with a humidifier running 24/7 ! So, i have a aquarium chiller from a dwc grow, would it benefit me to use this chiller on my EF res? or should I sell it and get a bigger table/res?

next... Where exactly do you guys take your temp measurements for the room? I am getting 85F on a digital therm. right at plant canopy level, under the light.. is this too hot?

also, If you had your choice of what type of medium to use in a 4x4 table what whould you choose? netpots with a lid? square pots? etc..

Thanks guys!

[Lucas]

Welcome to CW DH

> Is it okay to run the lucas formula with these plants this small?

yes, because you have strong light

> would it be okay to switch to the 15ml Bloom/5ml Calmag now?

yes, because you have strong light

disclaimer, if you dont keep your res full every day, cut back to half strength

> i have a aquarium chiller from a dwc grow, would it benefit me to use this chiller on my EF res? or should I sell it and get a bigger table/res?

sell it and buy an airconditioner for the whole room. 85 airtemp is too hot, 80 degree nutes are a sign the room is too hot, and 35% humidity is too low. With AC you will need to seal the room and add CO2. You wont have low humidity once you seal the room, you will need a De-Humidifyer.

You should try to get your canopy no hotter than 80, the nutes no hotter than 72, and humidity between 50 and 60%

> next... Where exactly do you guys take your temp measurements for the room? I am getting 85F on a digital therm. right at plant canopy level, under the light.. is this too hot?

you did it right, temp of canopy is correct

> also, If you had your choice of what type of medium to use in a 4x4 table what whould you choose? netpots with a lid? square pots? etc..

netpots with a lid is fine as long as you dont need to move the plants. The roots will grow together.

If you go with no lid, and 6" square pots, you will be a conventional ebb flow system

the netpot and lid setup will be hotter in the root zone than with square pots and no lid

Im amazed you are able to grow in such a hot room. Fix it soon, things will get worse as the plants get bigger.

Lucas

[Lucas]

what is your yield in grams per watt, and how many days of bloom to get that yield?

[Indica Sativa]

Due to a lack of healthy clones and no mothers at the moment, I have about 10 healthy cuttings, maybe a few more... My closet is a 5x4 space including a 600w with plenty of air movement. I keep temps around 73-75 at the canopy (this is about 7 inches from the light), 68-69 at night.. and humidy is 50-60%. Lucas formula used for gro/veg. B'cuzz Coco Coir and a bit of perlite for medium. Strain is Critical Hash =]

If I were to go with the 3 gal. pots, I am able to fit 9 of them in a 3x3 space. Since I don't have any 5 gal buckets laying around, I assume I am able to fit 6 of them perfectly in this 3x3 light space. The strain I use barely stretchs and bushmaster is used anyways. My question is: If I were to go with 3 gallon pots or 5 gallon buckets, what would be optimal veg time and how much perlite would I want to mix with the coco for each? Remember, stretching is absolutely not a problem! I would be more then grateful if everyone put their 2centz in =] ( Great News! I have two 400w that I could go get from a friend, can we factor these in some how...) i would also want to achieve a veg/bloom ratio of 20+%, can ya help me factor this? Thanks!

[Lucas]

High Indica Sativa

> My question is: If I were to go with 3 gallon pots or 5 gallon buckets, what would be optimal veg time

9 plants in 3 gallon buckets vegged for 7-10 days under the 600w bloom light is my guesstimate. (IF your strain blooms for 50 days, a 20% veg wattage would be 7 days)

> and how much perlite would I want to mix with the coco for each?

Assuming you are handwatering daily, I like 50% perlite/coco.. even better, 50%grorox/50%coco

Lucas

[ditto hobbs]

Thanks for the replies everyone!

I have a few more questions if you guys don't mind...

I'm now running a portable ac unit in my room 12x12' so I can dial my temps in wherever I like. I am also keeping the room @ 1500 ppm of co2 with the help of a c.a.p ppm-1c monitor, co2-4 controller, tank etc.
I will be flowering under a 1K hps, maybe even add 2 400 hps that i already have for some extra watts.

What would be the ideal temp/humidity to keep this room at with the parameters above?

Next question, In an atttemt to seal this room up fairly tight, I have thought about running my can fan/scrubber combo in the room WITHOUT venting it to the outside. Do you think this will be effective on killing the odor? (previously venting the scrubbed air into the attic created a neg. pressure on the room and kept the flow of stink going out) Any ideas on how to setup the ideal environment ?

Thanks for the help everyone.

[potpots]

Hey Lucas, I just wanted to say thanks. I'm a Cali legal med patient and you have made it easy for me to keep my lawful 6 perpetually flowering. Love ya man, potpots