Ask Lucas

[trayeasy]

Hell to all



I was just wondering If there was a formula for peters 20-20-20?
the only reason I ask is there are so many nutes out here claiming to be this and that,what ever happend to the simple stuff.Im running a simple test with peters and cal-mg in veg , and they are exploding with growth. No big names , just simple stupid.....


peace up

[gisisi]

If the peters works, it works. I you post the guaranteed analysis, along with weight and volume (unless it is dry) we can run it through the spreadsheet. Post the cal-mag specs as well.
What is the medium?

Like I said, if it works, it works. If the analysis indicates more than necesarry of any nutrient, an occasional flush will be fine. No need to change.

If you want to replicate lucas formula with peters, you will need some additional nutrients.

gisisi

[gisisi]

I went ahead and ran the spreadsheet for 20-20-20 as a dry fertilizer. Five grams per gallon gives the following elemental ppm
N 264
P 115
K 219
gisisi

[trayeasy]

hey gisisi thnks for the info


I use Promix BX as a medium. the five grams of dry Peters ,and how much CalMg ? and is this the formula for veg,cause I will go Flood and drain in flowering in hydrotron. and what other things will I need to add.Right now in veg I add 1 tablespoon per gallon of peters,and 2 tablespoons of CalMg.


peace up

[BlueCelisWhite1]

These are the stats on my air pump Im using.

Commercial Air Pump # 3: 65 LPM (liters per minute), 3.9 PSI, supports 6 airstones, 35 watts

So its got me rethinking my watts/gal. ratio.

So Im short 15 watts with this pump supplying O2 to two 25 gal tubs with two 12" air stones per tub. Should I be looking to add another pump to get closer to the 1 watt per gal. target?

Also for 25 gal. tubs should I use more airstones per tub?

[gisisi]

If you post the guaranteed analysis for calmag, I will run it. Do not forget the weight and volume. It's all on the label somewhere.

It would surprise me if a tablespoon of dry ferts is only 5 grams. I suggest weighing a tablespoon to make sure you are in the ball park.

All your numbers meet or exceed the profile of lucas formula which is the same for veg and bloom.

Lucas formula profile
N 130
P 106
K 183
Mg 73

Peters 20-20-20 at 5 grams per gallon
N 264
P 115
K 219

I would just use it all the way through, unless you want to buy another fert. If so, look for something with less nitrogen, but the same P and K. Is there a 10-20-20 peters fert?

You will want to flush though, as you have more nitrogen than even GH bottle directions for bloom, which gives
N 191
P 106
K 251
Mg 76

gisisi

[onAMission]

absolutely amazing that we have the opportunity to learn more from you Lucas!

I am extremely excited that you have decided to further contribute! I have been using your formula's for a very long time and would not use any other.

Thank you so much!

[Indica Sativa]

I have began to notice the beginning stages of what seems to be a calcium deficiency due to a low pH medium. Lucas, would you advise fixing the pH problem by simply feeding them with a higher pH until the runoff is where I want it?

Just fed them with a pH of 6.9..... tested some runoff and it was 5.9... what can I conclude from this?

[humble1]

Not sure if this should be in the calculate values sticky or not:
i've been experimenting with a local nutrient called cutting edge solutions.
it's similar to GH 3-part, but with better chelation and beneficial microbes.

grow:2.5-1.5-6 micro: 6-0-0 bloom: 0-6-5
additives: plant amp: calcium carbonate uncle john's blend: 0-0-2

recommended feed schedule for drain to waste:
veg: 10ml grow 5ml micro 5ml bloom
transition: 5 grow 5 micro 10 bloom
bloom: 0 grow 5 micro 15 bloom

10 ml each of the additives per gallon. everytime.

whaddaya think of elemental values etc... sorry i couldn't get Mg from the schedule.
Lucas... so many thanks, so little time

[Lucas]

high BCW1

> Should I be looking to add another pump to get closer to the 1 watt per gal. target?
> Also for 25 gal. tubs should I use more airstones per tub?

I think your curren wattage is enough, if your plants are happy. otoh, if you are fighting high res temps, above 72F, and are getting root rot, then the extra air will help

as to the number of stones, one stone is enough, if there is complete stirring of the nutes.. depends if the tub is low and flat, say 5" deep, or if its a ahape that is deep enough for the upwelling bubbles to cause the entire water volume to me stirred, no dead spots.. in extremely low and flat bubblers, it can help to use a water pump to make sure the entire res is stirred, no dead spots

HighIrie gisisi, thank you soooo much for taking on the spreadsheeting of trayeasy's nutes. I agree completely with your comments.. keep it coming

high Indica Sativa

> I have began to notice the beginning stages of what seems to be a calcium deficiency due to a low pH medium.

OK, I wont second guess your diagnosis of Ca deficiency.. nor the reason

it is enough to know your pH is too low in the medium, below 5.0

when that happens, its because of one of two things, overfeeding, which makes the TDS climb and the pH fall, or overwatering, which makes the roots die and rot.

To determine if the problem is overfeeding, check the TDS of the runoff, if its over 2000, you are overfeeding

if otoh, the runoff is below 2000, but the pH is still below 5, you are overwatering..

> Lucas, would you advise fixing the pH problem by simply feeding them with a higher pH until the runoff is where I want it?

no
even if you raise the pH of your irrigation solution, you may still be dealing with too high a TDS. You should report your TDS along with your pH, both for your irrigation solution, as well as for the first runoff

> Just fed them with a pH of 6.9..... tested some runoff and it was 5.9... what can I conclude from this?

that the pH in the pot is below 5 because you are overfeeding

get into the phylosophy of how to water

I suggest the following parameters. Dont water if the pots are heavy. Only water enough so the pots are not heavy after one day. If pots stay heavy for days, roots die.

Dont overfeed, either use low TDS (1/3 strength) irrigant, say 450ppm, if you feed with every irrigation, or dont feed with every watering, feed only once every 3rd watering, full strength (1350ppm)

then check you pH and TDS to see if you are overfeeding

humble1
I suggest you get the Mg spec, and hopefully then someone will spreadsheet for you...Im really not into using 6 different ingredients to do a job that can be done with one single product, but, if your plants are happy, thats all that matters

LucasI

[Indica Sativa]

I definitely over watered them the other day... should I raise the temps to get the pots to dry quicker? I'll gather as much info as I can when I water again.

[Lucas]

> should I raise the temps to get the pots to dry quicker?

no
you should lower the humidity in the room, to 30%, then the pots will dry out nicely

no point boiling the roots after drowning them..

let them breathe, dont make too wet, too hot

feel the cool breeze blowing nice fresh air through the room

btw, are you in a bubbler?<g>

Lucas

[Indica Sativa]

Im using a 60/40 mix of sphagnum peat moss and perlite. I'll tell ya Lucas, im never doing anything again with this mix. Soon as this crop is done, im going right back to my ebb/flow setup. Having to try and manipulate the low pH of the moss is just too much of a pain in the ass for my plants and I. Currently I am in day 22 of flower and I am already frustrated... sorry for the rant... when I do water them again, what should the solution of the pH be?

[Lollie]

I have started mixing my nutes per your recommendation. In a 20 gal reservior, with 13.5 gallons, I added 105 ml micro and 210 ml bloom, which I believe works out to 0-8-16. But I have a problem. After mixing, before the plant is added, my readings are 4.75 ph and EC 1.6. Would you add silicone to bring up the pH? That's what I did last night, please let me know what you think.

I've been adding the recommended solution for a couple of days and was not sure of the pH (it had been a while since I calibrated it). I calibrated the pen today and took some more readings. The ones that had been in this solution for a few days were still reading 5.0/1.6. They are drinking and getting very heavy. :grin: That tells me they like the current concentration, should I be worried the pH as been outside the recommended range? If they like what they're getting, they will raise the pH without help, right?

I would love to watch a garden of yours and find out why you do what at the different stages! Would it be possible to get a link to where one of your older journals are? I've found some of your reading material and would love to read just about everything you've ever written.

All the best,
Lollie

[Lucas]

> when I do water them again, what should the solution of the pH be?

whatever produces a pH in the runoff between 5.5 and 6.0

that might mean watering with pH 6.5

> If they like what they're getting, they will raise the pH without help, right?

not that I know of, I dont think plants can manage their own pH

your pH is low, I agree it needs some UP.. maybe silica is fine for up, I have no experiece with it, but I usually recommend normal hydro store pH UP.

If you are DWC, try to get the pH up to 5.2-5.8, I dont like to go below 5, nor above 6.0 in DWC.. if in ebb flow, add .5 to those values, cause between irrigations, the nutes get stronger and the pH drops in the root zone..

when the pH gets too low, the leaves curl down, seems you dont have that problem so, keep doing whatever is working.. without major changes

> Would it be possible to get a link to where one of your older journals are?

I dont think there are any old writings left, the websites were shut down.. this thread is a catch all for everything Ive ever tried to share.. Thanks for you kind words, pass on what you learn to others.

hth
Lucas

[Lollie]

Thank you so much!

Quote:

pass on what you learn to others

I try.

Thanks again,
Lollie

Ive been playing with the premixppm, trying to find the answer for the question i did in my previous post. And ive notice that the "Lucas Formula" lack of B, Zn and Cu.

Lucas, can you explain this? Since they are microelements, and plants needs little quantities of them, is plain water enough to apport them? My water analysis dont show them.

BTW, i made a mix with Cannacaco, PK13-14 and trace mix (Canna) (i can buy canna products cheap), and except for low Fe levels (only 0,6ppm, wich i think i can supply with iron quelates), gives a good nute profile:NPK 129-100-180, MgCa 52-137, but a low S level (20ppm), wich permit me low the ph with sulfuric acid (5ml of H2SO4 apport 27ppm), given the fact of my high water ph (9,5) because high SiO2 content. Do you think its a good way to solve my ph problem?

All the best,
knna

[Lucas]

> The result is the ph is over 7 after top the res with water and full nutes, mantaining EC over 1,5 (up to 1,8). I must use ph down always i refill the res.

if you use an EC of 2.0, the pH will be lower without needing as much pH down

> given the fact of my high water ph (9,5) because high SiO2 content.

if your water is causing you difficulties, consider using RO water

> And ive notice that the "Lucas Formula" lack of B, Zn and Cu. Lucas, can you explain this?

Ive noticed that too.. there are many manufacturers that report even fewer micros than GH.. The products seem to work despite the missing micro elements you noticed. I dont know why.

Are you happy with CannaCoco, and their nutes strategy? Are your plants happy? Have you asked Canna how to manage your pH? What did they tell you to do about your water?

really glad to see you are taking advantage of pH's spreadsheet.

fwiw, imho, canna is a complex staged feeding program, follow it exactly, dont try to second guess them.

the only part of their program I would alter, is the instruction to water until there is runoff, unless the pots dry out within 24 hours, otherwise, water less..

canna has a very complex feeding program, try to follow it exactly, and contact the manufacturer ir you have problems producing healthy plants by following their program.

hth
Lucas

I only follow canna advise the first time i used it. Not bad, but too much N, i believe. I asked them about coco coir recirculating system (e&f), and their answer was just not to do it.

I do it, and works fine. So, i will not attemp for another advice from them. No much help.

I will try the formula i made with your spreadsheet, i think it may work using sulfuric acid as ph down.

My plain water is soft (0,08EC), so i would like to use it if i can. I prefer to check some strategies before using RO water. And i think not only the water is the problem, but the coco coir too. I still using it because i wanted to try an hidro organic, but i rethink it, so maybe ill use hidroton next grow to see if works better.

knna

[Lucas]

hello knna

interesting problem you have, how to use Canna Coco, in a way the manufacturer disagrees with (ebb flow)

your first issue was high pH, was that with Canna nutes at their recommended dosage? or is the1.5-1.8 EC that you use, lower than Canna's official recipe?

you should not need to use pH down with Canna in RO water. If anything, you shold be needing pH UP...

Im not sure it makes sense that your very low EC water, .08, which is less than 60ppm@.7 could have such a strong pH UP effect, even if all 60ppm was silica..

I think your nutes are too weak if you need to use pH down.. I recommend you increase your EC to 2.0

but, I support your plan to figure out your plants needs without Canna's support.

if your goal is organic hydro, I suggest you use grorox on ebb flow, so you cant overwater. And use Pure Blend Pro as your "derived from organic sources" nutrient. I dont think Canna claims to be organic do they?

it IS possible to grow healthy plants in Coco, IF it is not overwatered.. I do Not believe Canna's claim that Coco cannot be overwatered...

and btw, the nutrient calculator spreadsheet was designed by my guru pH, he deserves all the credit for it.. Im glad you, and others are taking advantage of it.

hth
Lucas

Thanks a lot for your support, Lucas.

Until now, i was growing watering to waste, and this time is my first e&f grow, so im learning how to run this system fine.

When using only cannacoco, about 1,8EC gives a good hidro ph. But the profile for this feeding is 357-122-176 (NPK), too much N in flowering. But the PK 13-14 raise the ph (it have 7,9), and in a very stable way, so when using a cannacoco+PK feeding, i always need to use ph down.

So, if i raise the nute concentration to control ph, it must be raising the cannacoco, and it leads to an inadecuate profile for flowering stage.

With the help of Ph's spreadsheet, i realice that the problem, as you suggested, cant be the plain water, because its silica content is high in percentage, but low as an absolute level (7,3 mg/l SiO2, about 4 ppm of Si). My plain water has a initial very high ph, but take quickly the fertilizer's ph.

So i reach the conclusion the ph problem is due to PK13-14 use and the coco coir high ph (ive notice that after near 2 months running the system, acid requeriments are decreased a lot, i think due to coco coir ph is lower after so many waterings cycles). Ill try to wash better the coco coir before use it, and see if fighting only against PK high Ph is easier. If not, ill seek for other fertilizer wich apport PK but with a lower ph. And if it have Fe, better (i accept suggestions about )

I dont know if exist any recopilation of differents fertilizers, with its composition, to be used with the spredsheet. If not, i think we can create one, and with its respective phs. I believe it would be very useful.

Quote:

it IS possible to grow healthy plants in Coco, IF it is not overwatered.. I do Not believe Canna's claim that Coco cannot be overwatered...

Yes, ive grown very healthy plants in coco, but im trying to improve and reduce reservoir's atention requeriments.

Its difficult to overwater in coco, in the sense its a very well airated medium, specially in e&f, but not impossible. But clearly, it needs less water cycles because it holds lots of water, and dont need as often watering as other media. Ive been running two flood cycles per day and works fine.

Quote:

if your goal is organic hydro, I suggest you use grorox on ebb flow, so you cant overwater. And use Pure Blend Pro as your "derived from organic sources" nutrient. I dont think Canna claims to be organic do they?

No, Canna dont claim to be organic. If i use canna is because i can buy it cheap in 5l packs. So i would like to find a good way to use it, but if not possible, ill use others.

The choice of coco to grow hidro organic is because it can support the bacterias, and there is no need of biofiltre. But if finally i choose not go into organic, probably ill flip to more conventional e&f media.

The hidro organic nutes i want to try are from GH, called BioSevia. I opened a thread asking for more info about:http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/showthread.php?t=1066. Its a new product, and i only know what GH says in its web.

But my only purpose is improve taste, and i dont know if it worth the effort.

knna

[mace]

once overwatered, coco is very unforgiving. Anyone remember GG's coco grow when the timer/pump failed?

[Lucas]

> 357-122-176 (NPK), too much N in flowering. But the PK 13-14 raise the ph

I agree that is too much N, it is also too much P

I think you should use les PK13-14... which will help your pH not go so high..

> The choice of coco to grow hidro organic is because it can support the bacterias, and there is no need of biofiltre.

there is no bacterial field required in nutrients that come in a bottle, with the exception of Metanaturals

the idea that a biofilter is needed, is based on aquarium theory, which does not apply to hydroponics, since there are no fish involved.. see my Against Biobuckets thread..

> my only purpose is improve taste, and i dont know if it worth the effort.

I dont think nutes can improve taste. Imvho, taste is genetic.. We can fail to produce a healthy plant, and reduce the natural taste, but we cant add blueberries, and get that taste into the plant..

it is also possible to use too much N and P, both of which affect taste and smokeability, but you dont have to go organic to get good taste, you just need not to overfeed..

btw, your P specs are high to begin with, and pH down makes them even higher.. this can produce bud that sparkles.. from too much Phosphorous. Too much N makes for very "green" tasting bud..

About Canna coco, they have an excellent video showing how the cation exchange binds P and K.. and saying that Canna comes preloaded with P and K, that is locked to the medium..

based on all that, I think the Canna strategy to only add PK 13-14 one time, late in bloom, makes sense..

as to taste and nutes.. GH Flora, or Flora Nova, produces medicine that is not overfertilized, and is very very tasty, if the plants environment is making them healthy

as an aside, outdoor trainwreck, which is leafier that indoor, has less smell and taste, than indoor trainwreck. So it is possible of buds to smell less, and taste less, if they have higher leaf to calyx ratios.. The leaf to calyx ratio, besides the genetics, is storngly influenced by light intensity, and CO2..

in gardens with less CO2, such as what happens in high humidity gardens that cannot transpire properly, there will be less bud density, less smell, And, less potency

hth
Lucas

[gisisi]

High, Lucas

>in gardens with less CO2, such as what happens in high humidity gardens >that cannot transpire properly, there will be less bud density, less smell, >And, less potency

Could you please expand on this? Let me share my experience.

I am on the last two weeks of a run that has been unsuccessful.

Pro-mix HP, 1/3 strength Lucas formula each watering, five gallon nursery pots.

AC'd room, co2 generator, and the fogger I used with my KBS runs.

My plants gradually yellow out and lose their leaves. (not Mg def, just completely yellow)

My runoff measured to spec.

Could 70% rh cause this?

gisisi

[Lucas]

do the pots dry out every day?

if not, you are watering too much

yellow leaves can come from drowned roots

before I talk about humidity in the leaf zone, lets get the humidity in the root zone nailed down

do your pots dry out every day?

[gisisi]

Thanks, Lucas.

Initially, I was overwatering. (determined by reading some of your discussions here, and my wife) I cut back to letting them dry out, but the yellowing continued.

Perhaps I was still overwatering, as they did not always require water the next day. Never have this problem with 50/50.

gisisi