Male selection?

[suzy cremecheese]

Here it is brought to the new forums by Dobie. Thanks Dobie.

Selecting Breeding Individuals by MrSoul

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[Verbatim as posted on the internet by "Cindy 99's" originator "MrSoul" back in December of 1999...]

"Selecting Breeding Individuals for Marijuana Production:

Breeding fine cannabis involves carefully choosing the breeding stock.
To choose wisely we must first define male and female cannabis:

Female Cannabis
The female cannabis plant, unlike the male, is grown to produce marijuana. Premium marijuana is produced in seedless form by eliminating all pollen sources from the growing environment. Seed production reduces the value of marijuana dramatically by lowering the yield and potency of the flowers. Hermaphrodites are plants expressing both male and female flowers. They may fool a grower who mistakes the "hermie" for a female - only to find his crop is ruined by the unexpected release of pollen. Knowledgeable marijuana breeders are very careful to avoid hermaphrodism in their seedlines.

The attributes of a valuable female are the following (in descending order of importance):

1. Resistance to hermaphrodism
2. Vigor/Yield
3. Potency
4. Flavor
5. Rate of flowering response
6. Resin production
7. Stature
8. Scent
9. Floral structure
10. Floral color


Male Cannabis
The male cannabis plant is essentially only useful for breeding. The male plant makes very poor marijuana, being mostly leaves without the dense resinous floral clusters of the female the yield is miserable. More importantly, the male of the species has virtually no potency in comparison to that of female cannabis. The males do carry genes that influence the expression of ALL the traits listed above, but not many of them are directly observable in the male itself due to the male phenotype being markedly different from the female phenotype. A male cannabis plant is DEFINED by the quality of his daughters.

Naturally, when starting out with a large number of potential breeding individuals, one desires to “weed out" the undesirable individuals.

The female is easy to evaluate because all the traits favoring marijuana production are directly observable in the female. It's a simple matter of growing & flowering the females to grade their performance and smoking the resulting marijuana. The breeder then chooses only those females most closely matching the breeder's personal ideal to be used as seed parents.

The directly observable & important traits of male cannabis are as follows:

1. Resistance to hermaphrodism
2. Vigor
3. Stature
4. Maturation rate

All males expressing poor quality in any of these traits should be culled so as not to pass the weak trait on to the progeny.

Males are also be observed to have a certain scent and floral structure but the importance of these traits pale in comparison to those listed.

The potency of male plants, and especially the potency difference between individual males in a group, is generally too subtle to be measured by anything short of professional scientific laboratory equipment. Moreover, there is no conclusive proof that the most potent male in a group actually creates the most potent female progeny, although it seems intuitive that that should be the case. The difficulty of determining a male plant's potency is a major hurdle to proving this link.

Thankfully, logic dictates that the potency of a male plant ITSELF isn't very important, as we aren't interested in growing males for marijuana production. The value of a male lies entirely in the traits he consistently passes on to his daughters. Therefore it's unnecessary to identify the one male amongst a group of potential pollen donors with the greatest potency. It's far more logical to evaluate the female progeny of each male to define the potency of each male in the group.

Male cannabis individuals may be graded for quality by a controlled pollination of IDENTICAL female clones (one for each pollen donor). This isolates the influence of the male by holding CONSTANT the influence of the female on each cross. The seeds resulting from each clone are then grown and the progeny is graded to determine which of the crosses was the most successful. When the group with the most desirable female progeny is identified, the responsible male has been identified as the most valuable. Males can be kept in the vegetative state exactly like female “mother plants," except that we should call them “dads" of course. Clones from the favored male can be flowered as needed along with the breeding female(s) when seeds are desired.

Due to the clandestine nature of marijuana growing, in most cases there will only be about 10 males to be evaluated after culling all those with directly observable defects. Breeding with larger populations is always preferable, as genetics is a statistical "game".

Commercial breeders would clearly benefit from the development of a reliable method of identifying males with the greatest potential for passing on high potency genes. Perhaps someone will do the necessary research someday, but by following the above method, growers can accurately pin-point the ONE male in their small group which is the most potent...in the only meaningful sense of “male potency."

MrSoul
{"8^)_~

[The Cannarchist]

Welcome Suzy,

By growers for growers.

My pollen collection made it out alive.And that is one of the largest male selections I have seen.

Not sure I'll be able to do it again for awhile though.

I still smoke every one.

Vision

[suzy cremecheese]

I still smoke every one.



Well no one can claim you arent comitted. ;)

[vapor]

true dat ^^^^

[1stCrop]

What do you smoke?
The top most leaf clusters?
When do you smoke them? After pollen collection or before.
thanks

[Thorax]

Smoking pollen will just give you a sore throat.
As soon as you know the sex you should sample a top or two....just enough for a small doob.
You don't want fan leaves and if you know it's a male cutting the top off really doesn't matter, you're not needing to worry about bud size.

It will be harsh and taste like leaf....you have to see thru that and look for any sweetness or unusual flavor....and of course, the potency.
Obviously it won't be as potent as smoking bud (although I've smoked some that would blow your skirt up) so you really have to keep an open mind and look past the leaf mindset.

It sux, but ya gotta do it.

[suzy cremecheese]

It sux, but ya gotta do it.

Mr Soul and many plant breeders would disagree. The first post has been ammended for those that would like to reread it.

sc

[Thorax]

I highly doubt anyone enjoys smoking leaf, I don't think having a name would change this.

[Marvin Martian]

In order to determine if you have a male that passes on the trait(s) you desire, one needs to grow and test his female offspring. With so many variables and unknowns with specific cultivars, there is not even a guarantee that a male that combines nicely with one plant will do so with another.

The more information you are armed with the better.........if another breeder or grower has worked with a strain and you trust their opinion and input, that can help as well. For example......lots of varieties in the Netherlands were "skunkified." They generally used skunk to pass on specific traits. So, it can be surmised that these traits are passed on to their female offspring more times than not. G-13 was used for power and usually crossed with something to improve flavor........the list goes on and on.

MM

[suzy cremecheese]

I highly doubt anyone enjoys smoking leaf, I don't think having a name would change this.

Its not about whether you enjoy it or not or what your name is. It is about, is it necessary to smoke leaf to evaluate males? This is hotly debated among Cannabis breeders both amateur and professional... but I believe the proof is out there that you don't need to. The question is... "Do the same genes that control male potency also control female potency?" No one has proven that they do... yet. I believe they can't.

[c-ray]

breeding is totally based on patterns..pretty much...and by breeding and growing many many examples and studying them with reckless abandon and allowing the patterns to flow on a subconscious level it is possible for patterns to emerge and selections to become totally instinctive...

[Gruru]

breeding is totally based on patterns..pretty much...and by breeding and growing many many examples and studying them with reckless abandon and allowing the patterns to flow on a subconscious level it is possible for patterns to emerge and selections to become totally instinctive...
perhaps maybe a little divine intervention as well :) :D

[Ziggy]

I have heard people say that they smoke the male counter parts but thats just not for me.
I don't do Leaves either though.

I appoligize suzy Creamcheese my post has been edited lol

[Marvin Martian]

From what I read, Suzy and I agree smoking males is not mandatory. :D You made me have to go back and read the posts to make sure I understood Suzy's position.

I also agree with the others who say on an unconscious level you become good at selection, as well. Not that being a good grower makes a breeder, but it does help. Many of the skills employed to choose your specimens for cuts apply in slightly different aspects with breeding plants.

On the other hand, it is just as easy to make a bone headed selection and leave yourself wondering what the hell you were thinking. You just have to be willing to go back to the drawing board again and try to "recapture" what it is you are seeking from a specific line if the genetic combination does not hit the mark you meant to achieve.

MM

[suzy cremecheese]

From what I read, Suzy and I agree smoking males is not mandatory.

That's what I thought too marv. I had to go reread my posts to make sure I was clear. Wasnt I?

[Sativa Science]

I choose to use many males selected for basic traits.
The daughters of the next generation will tell the tale best.

[moonunit]

I think we could say it has been established that progeny testing is the only definative male selection technique, but, as has been argued over many times, is the logistical facts of the exclusive use of progeny testing for male selection. Even the biggest of the breeding houses would have trouble testing the female offspring of every male in any decent selection spread. This i believe is the cross road many of us get to, mr soul choose to elimate any selection on the male side and use the mixed pollen of all the males of the spread. The pro of this tech is that soul only selcted using the female sex, as it is the only sex we can DEFINATIVELY select from physically. This allowed his selection to be much more precise, with less steps backwards due to the precise nature of the selection. The con of this tech is that the breeding of ones lines take longer due to the narrowing of the selection criteria(no selection on males).
Our approach to this cross road was to say out of a selection spread of 50 males, select by eye on basic traits such as structure , vigor, aroma, ease of growth ect down to 5 - 10 males. Then we progeny test the 5-10 males on well known cuttings of at least 3 varieties, and test the female progeny, looking for the most potent and those that carry on the specific head we are searching for. This takes much time and has slowed our programs up but cuts down on backsteps in our breeding program(saving lots of archived beans,((breeders, archive as many beans as u use for selection, for every step, every p1, every gen. U will thank yourself later lol)). I know i will cop flames for this post but i feel it is about finding a realistic comprimise between the ideal(progeny testing every male in the spread) and the realistic approach of physical male selection(by eye and feel).
Much respect
Moonunit

[suzy cremecheese]

mr soul choose to elimate any selection on the male side and use the mixed pollen of all the males of the spread. The pro of this tech is that soul only selcted using the female sex, as it is the only sex we can DEFINATIVELY select from physically. This allowed his selection to be much more precise, with less steps backwards due to the precise nature of the selection.

Well said but I'd like to add One advantage... using all the males insures that you won't eliminate invisible valuable traits until they get to the females.

Good post MU thanks for sharing your methods.

[c-ray]

moonunit I would say you are right on the mark, nice job of breaking it down to the basics, it doesn't have to be anymore complicated than that

[moonunit]

"Well said but I'd like to add One advantage... using all the males insures that you won't eliminate invisible valuable traits until they get to the females."

Good to read you sc
Thats true, but lets not forget the using of all males insures that you won't eliminate invisible unwanted traits untill they get to the females, as well as the valuable ones.
But you have to take the good with the bad i guess, and still having one highly wanted trait remain in the gene pool at the expense of piggy backing in some negative traits is well worth it imho, but can slow the process drastically by having to weed those neg traits back out later. By selecting physically on a male spread, we are taking shortcuts no doubt, but short cuts that realistically have to be taken to get anywhere under the political climate we live under. If we could use the induction of a genetic markers (rapd, microsat ect) and identify traits positively, progeny testing could become sooooo much easier, just a matter of sprouting the beans, taking an early sample and testing for the marked positive traits of potency, type of head ect.
Hi cray
It all about being able to use the knowledge, whilst it is evolving. If we waited for the definative answer to this breeding cross road, no work would be done. There is never a true best method,we will always refine or rethink and find a better way, as by our nature as humans, we evolve in a dynamic enviroment expodentualy, as does our science and our realistic application of the science that best serves our goals. Soul chose one way, shanti and nev another , yet both methods achieve great results for them, and both methods yet different, both had their basis in science. Its a great discussion and i would say that any serious breeder of the herb knows of the male selection cross road and works to find the way around that best suits them untill we a have definative and at the same time realistic direction-method.
Much respect
Moonunit

[hydrorascal]

I wouldnt say Im a breeder. The few endeavors have been very successful by reading threads similar to this. I add a couple of things for med focus.

What is the results that are trying to be achieved and use strains that it would seem to match up with the end result in mind. Part of this includes the grow aroma along with ease of plant growing.

As only a beginner I go with just the basics for a male. Vigorous, good looking with a good physical feel to the stems and leafs. A pleasing aroma is nice but not necessary.

Ive always selected prime females with similar traits to the male selection and
selectively pollinate usually several bud sites roughly in the middle of the plant.

The best cross to date has been with X-13 and Rosetta Stone which provided several chemo patients a return to almost 'normal' life during chemo. The logic of choice was pretty simple. X was chosen as the female due to a number of chemo patients expressing that it was the most effective strain provided.

Rosetta Stone was chosen by taking med patients requests and literally going thru strain reports until a seemingly suitable strain was located. The resulting strain provided a much longer duration med and one with not quite the punch of X-13 by herself. One very positive side effect was the cross seemed to also be very effective on chemo induced depression ~!~

Not being a breeder why did I even attempt this ? Because of threads like this and good folks like you that showed me the way of 'how to'.

A number of med folks can now say to all who helped me ...Thank you !
hr

[Cuzin_Dave]

Male selection for breeding plants is seldom given the serious attention it really deserves. The actual number of males used determines the effective breeding population (Ne), the probability of preserving alleles in the overall population and the genetic drift effect. These subjects all need to be addressed at length with respect to cannabis breeding. Almost all of the discussion on cannabis breeding and male selection is based on conjecture and not science.

[meloyelo]

using all the males insures that you won't eliminate invisible valuable traits until they get to the females."
That is critical to Soul's work, capturing as many possible male traits but then de-emphasizing them by backcrossing future generations back to the mother, re-emphasizing her traits. I think the backcrossing is critical to this discussion because Soul wasn't going straight forward with m/f selections, but kept going back to the same mother whose traits he wanted to stabilize and perpetuate.
-melo

[suzy cremecheese]

Good points melo... but male selection goes beyond the back cross technique. It applies to every technique except sex reversal. Maybe a thread specifically about the backcross technique would be good here.

I would imagine that regardless of your technique, the goal of male selection is still to find the males that most reliably pass the desirable traits onto their female progeny.

[capt carnuba]

Keep up the good work, since I'm from the pollenate them all and let god sort em out school; I'll be watching with rapt attention.

[Cuzin_Dave]

Effective breeding population is one of the most basic parameters of population genetics. The idealised Ne is by definition infinitely large and diverse and fully represents all the potential genetic expressions in the population.
The actual calculation is fairly simple arithmetic and goes as follows:
Ne = 4 * (# of Males) * (# of Females) / (# of Males) + (# of Females)
For example a grower selects 1 male and 500 females for breeding. The effective breeding population is; (4) * (1) * (500) / (500+1) = 4. The effective breeding population can never be larger than the number of males selected for breeding. Another example 50 males 10 females Ne becomes 2000/60 or 33.33.
I read the article by DJ Short regarding his breeding of the famous Blueberry wherein he states that he only uses one male for his breeding selections. That might help explain why Blueberry is so resistant to breeding improvement. To quote, "Second, I select only one male from any single breeding project. Again, this simplifies things and avoids mistakes enormously. That male is generally selected at about the third week in the flowering cycle, unless it is a clone from another project".
By and large most cannabis breeders tend to ignore matters like effective breeding population when making their selections for males.

[Cuzin_Dave]

To expand on the basic concept of Ne one must consider how Ne effects the F statistic (Coefficient of Inbreeding).
So let's assume an NE of say 4. The decline in heterozygosity or rate of inbreeding at from the first generation would be: F1 = (1) / (2 * Ne) or 1 / (2 * 4) = .125.
With each subsequent generation the decline in heterozygosity is cumulative. Take generation F6
F6 = 1 - (1 - F1) ^ 6 = 1 - (1 - .125) ^ 6 = .551
By the 6th generation 55% of the genetic diversity will have been lost in the line. By the 12th generation 1 - (.87.5) ^ 12 = 80 % of the genetic diversity will have been eliminated.
The larger the Ne the lower the rate is the actual loss of diversity through inbreeding.

[c-ray]

hey dave thanks for the awesome info, I copied it to the breeding library here:
https://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/showthread.php?t=459
on second thought maybe it should go to the breeding FAQs instead

[Greens]

I don't smoke the males, but for potency I always pic a male that has large visible trichomes on it. Also, I cut off leaves and squeeze them between my fingers to see how sticky it is and also to see how it smells. Another way to get the smell from a male is to just rub the stem with your fingers and then smell.

To me as a northern outdoor breeder with a short season, the early flowering tendency is the most important trait. I also place potency and resin production slightly ahead of vigor as well.

Greens

[c-ray]

to really get into the aroma of a male I like to rub the stalk with my nose

[Glass Man]

A person could get a headache from thinking so hard! And uh, what's the goal again? Sticky, stanky, sweet, & danky, oozy, goozy, kind buds.....I think we've already hit that mark all kinds of ways!! I'm mean how good and strong and sweet are we hoping to make this shit? I'm already seeing God!! LOL!!!

Peace,