Help me, help you.

[nuggdigger]

lmj3IaB2NcE

[nuggdigger]

this is a thread about alll the factors that make a vertical garden so successful'

it will be compiled in the end for a vertical advantage thread.

peace

nug

[nuggdigger]

a few links to get the juices flowin'


http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/showthread.php?t=3427
http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/showthread.php?t=5131
http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/showthread.php?t=5100
http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/showthread.php?t=5823

http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/showthread.php?t=5154

[nuggdigger]

ok...just going to get the ball rolling by giving away one of the big secret inventions :shocked:
its not the coliseum...
its not the cage..
its not about red or white plastic tubes or beds..


Ddocs number one significant invention imo...is the ...
!!!Vertical Lighting Array!!!
tbc..

[nuggdigger]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWofxpq3fgA&feature=BFa&list=AVGxdCwVVULXfyRBtcfP48yL_uMzP1BZKY&index=7
a lil stoner memoir to a once met interior family guy on my last vacation..that guy could roll the most unbelievable fattest phatty

cheers mon'
theyknowofwhomispeak'

[nuggdigger]

ahh...so after a few days of no new threats from thugs..lol..i guess its safe to talk about the vertical array....

for me..i can honestly say its taken my mind years to understand the benefits of the vertical array..somethings are just tough to imagine without been shown.. some magic or new math has to be comprehended that is not blatantly obvious.


old math is like 1,2,3 1+1= 2 etc. stuff we know.

this pyramid, common in the HID grow world is from point source lighting.

when talking about distance from a HID light,
DDoc stated..
From a point source the light density drops proportionate to radius squared. when you are a little distance from the light it looks like a point source.

[nuggdigger]

so onto new math!!


Line Source


now the other part to the DDoc quote was
The line source allows for greater distance to the lamp. the reason for this is a line source the light density drops proportionate to radius from the lamp.

thats the new math..line source drops proportionate to the radius from the lamp...
where as in old math point source dropped proportional to the radius squared!!

Eg 10000 Foot candles at 1 foot drops to 5000 Foot candles at 2 foot from a line source.
10000 Foot candles at 1 foot drops to 2500 Foot candles at 2 foot from a point source.

[nuggdigger]

another benefit is less shading from leaves/canopy..light hits the plant from many different angles finding another unshaded path in;)

As you get larger lamps and longer array's you will find the light density at the front of the plant and the back of the plant are very close to the same. Much like the sun.




also..In a coliseum the only place the light escapes without being used by a plant is through the top and bottom. So as you stack more and more coliseum modules and you increase the length of the line array your percent of wasted light goes down. So it becomes more efficient.



or in any cylidercal grow for that matter with array lighting

A Flat garden at 40 W/square foot has 10000 Foot candles intensity right under the lamp and 1000 Foot candles intensity on the perimeter. A Vertical Cylinder garden with a multi lamp lined array at 40 W/square foot has 5000 Foot candles at every part of the garden. This is the primary reason why the plants are better quality and double to triple the yield.

[nuggdigger]

found this old cage post im sure the Disciple will like..

Question: I was wondering if it would be possible to use two 600 watts in a Cage?

Answer by the Cage inventor:
It is possible to use 2 x 600 W HPS but that would not be as good as using 3 x 400 W HPS for the same power. You will find that the light of the canopy is not as even using 2 x 600 W compared to 3 x 400 W HPS. Using my light meter (Calibrated to 140000 lux at 1 ft from a 1000 W HPS) the lux will vary between 60000 and 160000 lux at canopy using the 2 x 600 W lamps where the 3 x 400 W lamps give a canopy variation of 80000 to 130000 lux. Using 4 x250 HPS we can cut the canopy variation down to 100000 to 120000 lux (most stadiums vary from 40000 lux {top corner} to 120000 {straight out}). The reason for this even light for more lamps is as we add more lamps we get closer approximation to a line source light which lumen intensity varies as 1/r (on a cylinder surrounding it) instead of a point source which varies as 1/ (r*r).
This means as you double your distance your light intensity will be one-half instead of one-quarter. A true line source would keep the Cage light intensity constant on all the plants. You will find your plants burn straight out from 600 W HPS lamp and the plants that are far away from the lamp are not lit enough (from actual test results).


this is really the part i was not getting...the part i had to learn/overcome
how the sum of the many can be greater then the parts.


ain't new math great;)

[nuggdigger]

The law of diminishing returns (also law of diminishing marginal returns or law of increasing relative cost) states that in all productive processes, adding more of one factor of production, while holding all others constant, will at some point yield lower per-unit returns.[1] The law of diminishing returns does not imply that adding more of a factor will decrease the total production, a condition known as negative returns, though in fact this is common.


What is the optimum light intensity to work efficiently?

Answer:
This is quite a difficult question. the reason is that many light meters do not read light intensity properly.
I find as the light intensity increases above 70,000 lux on my light meter that the spectrum of the light becomes much more important and that a mix of a good spectrum HPS and a good spectrum Metal Halide becomes important.

This was another idea that DDoc felt optimized efficiency. The combination of HPS and MH lighting made for a higher total PAR value allowing the plant to use the light more efficiently, ie..at lower levels, to a certain point.
A higher PAR value has benefits beyond light optimization, it grows healthy short ideal plants, with a spectrum that more closely simulates the values of mother natures' sun.

Remember the grower can grow with less light without losing their yield per Watt. This is valid until you decrease your light to the point of diminishing quality but it is very strain dependent. I have noticed with several strains grown this number is about 70,000 lux.

Before the point of diminishing quality your yield per Watt does not normally suffer but the quality of the flowers does.

Another thing to note is that these numbers are only valid for the combination of HPS - MH Warm Deluxe mixed spectrum. These numbers will vary if only HPS or only metal halides are used. I have not calculated these numbers for HPS or metal halides by themselves. But if i had to guess the pattern would be that metal halides by themselves would allow for a higher lux point of diminishing returns and the HPS lamps by themselves would allow for a lower lux point of diminishing returns.

[nuggdigger]

so how much??

Giving optimum distance from single lamp is much different then two lamps positioned one above the other. I don't have curves mapped out for each lamp because you will find I like
missing data...if anyone has it please pm me..


1) Calibrate your light meter to 140,000 lux at 12 inches from the center of a new HPS lamp
2 Determine the location receiving between 90,000 lux and 120,000 lux light intensity

You now know the optimum 3 dimensional surface on which to put your canopy. When you change your setup repeat these two stems for your new setup

In the Cube or the Cage you will find that I have left the top open for the heat to convect upwards away from the canopy. At between 90,000 and 120,000 lux you will find radiant heat (coming from the lamps) not to be a large problem unless your room is above 82 degrees F.




another benefit just popped up ..heat rises, and a fan below the array helps;)

[nuggdigger]

tCHFiJ9MIB0

to this point the focus has been solely on the vertical array.
now to move onto the other components of vertical gardening.

or....areas the vertical array effects/enhances...lol

[nuggdigger]

theres an old farmers saying around here...
i dont want all the land...
just the land that touches mine..

http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/showthread.php?t=5823

DDoc compares some vertical and a stadium and a flat system.

Coliseum canopy is 84 inches, Outer radial to plant 26 inches, Inner radial to plant 14 inches. Using basic math calculations we get 73 cubic feet of properly lit canopy.

Grow Cube canopy height is 62 inches, Outer radial to plant 30 to 36 inches, Inner radial to plant is 18 to 24 inches. Tray 44 inches by 44 inches. We then get 81 cubic feet of properly lit canopy.

Cage canopy height is 63 inches, Outer radial to plant is 18 inches, Inner radial to plant is 6 inches. We get 32 feet of properly lit canopy. We can get more cu*ft if we twist the columns outward.

Omega garden SOG system. Given a 16 inch tall plant with 12 inches of light penetration the Omega gives:
Outer radial to plant(24"-4") 20 inches, Inner radial to plant (24"-16") 8 inches, Width 40 inches. We get 24 cubic feet of properly lit canopy.

Flat SOG system 44 inches by 44 inches. We get 13 cubic feet of canopy that is overlit in the center and underlit on the edges.

The Wattages that are used in each of the systems are 1600 W for the Coliseum, 2000 W for the grow cube, 1000 W for the Cage, 1200 W for the Omega garden and 1000 W for the 4 by 4 tray.

[nuggdigger]

now of course this is not an apples apples comparison..



luckily an ole friend did the crunch..

I adjusted the estimates above mathematically and this is what it come to per 1K:

Coliseum 4.56 lbs (1000 W)... actual reported yield is 4 lbs, very close
Grow Cube: 4.05 lbs (1000 W)... actual reported yield is 1.25 pounds, sad
Cage: 3.2 lbs (1000 W)... actual reported yield is 2 pounds


which says:
"It might be 2 1/2 lbs from 2 1000's."
It would be more fair to compare the yield in the cube by the same grower whose cage and colliseum grows are reported above.

For me the bottom line is that 22 watts per sq ft seems to work extremely well in a vertical garden. Whereas the cage only yields 2 lbs per 1K, the colliseum yields 4 pounds! from the same wattage by spreading the light thinner.

Thanks for the very interesting data
Lucas

[GoKart Motzart]

Wicked thread Nugg! Keep it coming!

[nuggdigger]

posted by DDoc on July 27 2002 on Cannabis World


Lucas: It was actually 6 lbs/2000 W for Grow Cube and 3 lbs/1000 W for the Cage.

[nuggdigger]

A Flat garden at 40 W/square foot has 10000 Foot candles intensity right under the lamp and 1000 Foot candles intensity on the perimeter. A Vertical Cylinder garden with a multi lamp lined array at 40 W/square foot has 5000 Foot candles at every part of the garden. This is the primary reason why the plants are better quality and double to triple the yield.



this DDoc quote to Lucas says a mouthful..

The Vertical Cylinder garden is about canopy footage..
the multi lamp lined array is about full even lighting all over with less "lumen decay" over distance and greater canopy penetration..
to a point.

yes this is why plants are better quality and higher yield..
but as in any light penetration situation:spitcoffee:..
there is more then just decay over distance.

When light strikes a leaf..its done its job.
The leaf really only allows far red through the canopy..
the vertical array can have the advantage of cascading the light over the plant for better canopy penetration, and with all those angles there are more cracks to slip through, but this is only to a point.

this is the same reason the full canopy flat garden has nice tops only..
but in side lighting the expression is more even up and down the plant.

this brings us to a couple more lessons from DDoc..

[nuggdigger]

SOG gardens always yield higher GMS (total garden wattage)/per unit of time, then large plants.




SOG gardens always yield higher GMS/cubic foot garden area. Higher bud density per cubic foot.

[nuggdigger]

for a while now i've been considering how to illiterate this next point..
im still not sure how to make it clear as it was made to me..
im hoping the one who explained it to me would be gracious enough to help me clarify it for the masses.

l/
l/
l/
l/

much thanx if you can help with this,

nug

[c-ray]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_sY2rjxq6M