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Green Supreme
03-24-2011, 12:34 AM
This post made by djzed aka DJ Short, on ICmag

More Issues Concerning Cannabis Quality
Issues Concerning Cannabis Quality:
Seeded v. Seedless Herb, Hash, Bland Potency,
Character, etc.

I do tend to favor the experience provided by seeded vs. seedless herb, this includes the hash made from either. There are a number of reasons for this—I’ve had experience with both having raised a fair amount of seeds and sinsemilla, and the best herb I’ve ever experienced was seeded (and hermaphroditic). We must differentiate between ‘herb’ and ‘hash’.

First, the hash: I am not certain about the Afghani or the Nepalese, but I recall that Moroccan and Lebanese hashes were both made from seeded herb. I imagine that most commercial hash is produced from outdoor-grown or wild plants that would have at least a few seeds. But the best domestic hash I’ve yet to try definitely came from seeded herb.

Some of the best domestic hash I’ve experienced came from Switzerland where the Spice of Life crew did an R & D project with a few of my strains. The photo on the cover of my book is actually ‘Blue Satellite’ (not Blueberry as cited) and much of that hash came from that plant (seeded) and her siblings. Ice water extraction and the wastewater was amethyst purple colored with many (large) gland-heads found in the 160-micron bag, and there was a good amount from the 75- and 45-micron bags as well. The ‘ball’ was a marbled mix of blue/grey and gold/brown and was impossibly tacky at room temperature. The hash needed to be flattened between cellophane and placed in the freezer for a bit to be manageable. The experience was surreally pleasant under any conditions, very clear-headed and focused, yet with a well balanced, uninhibited detach—flavor of subtle sweet/savory/musky in a full-melt, clear-dome putty that left yellow oil found where the bubbles formed the day prior. Truly a master-crafted product!

From rubbings (finger and scissor) to ice water or dry sieve extraction, the concentrate from the seeded herb provided an experience superior to the hash from the seedless varieties. The difference is subtle and perhaps requires an acquired taste, but I do tend to appreciate the product from the seeded vs. seedless herb. Ways to describe it are; ‘broader’, ‘more complex’, usually more ‘calming’. Another aspect would be that seeded product causes a more ‘even’ experience, while the seedless seems to have more ‘peaks and valleys’ to its spectrum of effect. (Incidentally, the issue of ‘spectrum of effect’ is an important means by which to judge herb and hash—more on that another time.) Therefore, the experience from the hash made from seedless herb tends to be a little ‘narrower’, ‘less complex’, and usually a little more ‘up’ (depending on strain), and the experience from the seeded product tends to be ‘broader’, more evenly spread, more ‘mellow’ and complex. Again, please realize that these differences are subtle, yet in my experience valid.

As for herb: The best herbs I’ve experienced to date were highland tropical’s: Oaxaca, Colombia, Panama, Thailand—these (among others) are the places that the best herb comes from and all were seeded and hermaphroditic. I doubt that we’ll ever fully replicate the highland tropical environment, but I have hope that we will someday return to these areas and rediscover/reproduce some of these great old landraces. When we do, I’m willing to bet they will be at least somewhat seeded and hermaphroditic. One thing is for certain, the best of these landrace sativa possessed true ‘character’.

Another interesting note is that the herb I describe as ‘The Best’ tested at approx. 7% THC! Some of the Maui Sativa appeared to have reached 10%. Obviously, something(s) other than THC is (are) playing an important role in the finished product and its overall character. Which brings us to the issue of ‘bland potency’.

‘Bland potency’ is the term I apply to the effects of much of the currently commercial available ‘dank’ (bud). Overpowering, ‘stupefying’, cloudy, suppressive, ‘clenchy’ symptoms that do not lend to a very enjoyable experience, is my opinion of much of this said ‘dank’. I understand and respect the specific medical needs for such a powerful distraction. Managing strong pain meds is a good example of such need. However, the subtler character possible from high quality herb is all-too-often overlooked due to bland potency’s overbearing presence.

It’s easy to understand how this situation came to be when considering that the primary reward to the novice grower is potency. Coupled with the fact that potency is relatively easy to replicate and bolster (as is yield), the problem tends to expand as more and more enter the industry.

Another related factor is the issue of ‘bag appeal’. Bag appeal is a holdover term from the old (and current) street-dealer days. The ‘nugs’ need to look ‘dank’ especially in a shady/hastened situation.

Story: Back in the mid/early-70’s there was a small-commercial run of some fabulous Acapulco Gold that was available for awhile, 3 months or so. It sold for a little more, $60 a lid (estimated oz.), than the commercial Colombian of the times, which sold for approx. $30-$40 a lid. But the Gold was so much more special—it had ‘character’. Toward the end of that run the dregs were all that was left and resembled dust, seeds and sticks. I would happily pay twice the asking of current-day top-shelf ‘dank’ for some of that dust, sticks and seeds of the old Acapulco Gold—definitely little current-day bag appeal.

Add ‘cash-croppers’ to the equation and we end up with the unholy trident of bland potency, bag appeal and cash croppers providing a seemingly ceaseless supply of ‘beasters’ level product flooding the market. Some of it, however, does produce some more interesting hashish, extracts and concentrates—which is where I think we could focus more.

The domestic hashish, extracts and concentrates I’ve been sampling are increasing in character at a faster pace than domestic herb. I’ve been wondering more about the possibility that glandular stalked trichome producing plants were selected/bred for dry sieve and water extraction of hash outside of the tropics. Tropical herb bears less membrane-trapped oils that seem to be secreted by specialized hairs directly to the leaf surface. Outside of the tropics the main methods of extraction/concentration are via dry sieve and water extraction. In the tropics, however, the main form of collection traditionally is rubbing. This would also include Nepal and Kashmir, though technically outside of the tropics. Keep on playing and experimenting and dialing it in, much success is yet to be found among the extracts and concentrates.

So there are a few words about the quality of cannabis in the early days of the 21st century. Please feel free to comment on any of the post.

Green Supreme
03-24-2011, 12:44 AM
Thread link for those interested. Peace GS

http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?p=4323245#post4323245

spaceman
03-24-2011, 01:10 AM
free the seed!

Lrus007
03-24-2011, 03:43 AM
was a good read
smoked a lot of seeded pot in my time.
some damn good ones too. i do think
there a diff high to seeded pot. only
problem is that seed that finds it's way
into the joint. as for hash of seeded plants
i would think the tric would be diff. because
it is protecting seed from birds and insects.
then for rubbed hash we have all had some
from fingers and scissors. it is diff than dry
sift or bubble in it's own way.

on a side note my Lhp plant if i make bubble
the waste water is dark purple. i also get some
red dry sift kiff from it.
just some thought's

Alchemist
10-28-2011, 07:12 PM
I like reading what dj short has to say. I agree with bland potency and lack of character in much of todays commercially available pot.

I like making seeds and smoking the pot but the seed covers become waxy when covering developing seeds. This always throws the flavor off a little IMHO.

PEAS

spaceman
10-28-2011, 09:06 PM
If we were not in prohibition then most of this commercial stuff would not be smoked, we would most likely be smoking sativas sativas sativas./////

Green Supreme
12-22-2011, 07:19 PM
So an ethics battle is being held on IC Mag. I will post DJ's Posts then the thread they are in so folks can check it out. Peace GS



So this is the thread that started it all: https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=226595

Seed Sprouting Issues.

My preferred sprout method is as follows: Seeds are soaked in distilled water for 6 to 18 hours, seeds are then transferred to 5 or 6 stacked sheets of white (non-printed) paper towel, folded twice (to about 5” sq. or13 cm. sq.), soaked with distilled water. Folded paper towel containing seed is placed on a clean (sterile) plate or pan, preferably glass or glaze, and put in a warm, dark place—top of the fridge works good. Keep the paper towel moist but not too soaked, dripping but not in a puddle. Most sprouts appear within 48 hours, a few take up to one week or more. Some people prefer to plant at the first sign of sprouting, others prefer to wait until the taproot is elongated. Both ways have their advantages and disadvantages and are therefore a matter of preference. If a longer time is spent in the paper towel, the paper towel should be changed every several days. The main focus is cleanliness—sterility, throughout the process.

Note that some seed have stubborn casings, especially when the taproot is planted and the shell casing covering the cotyledon is allowed to dry before sloughing off. The cotyledon will wither and die of strangulation unless the casing, and a cellulous sheath are ‘surgically’ removed (i.e. removed with surgical precision and sterility). Keeping the seedling, and its casing, sufficiently moist helps to avoid this problem. Scuffing seeds (exposing the seam on the seed to an abrasive ‘scuffing’ usually with sandpaper or an emery board), or ‘popping’ seeds (gently squeezing the seed ‘popping’ the seam open) will also facilitate sprouting and hasten sprout time. Again, special attention needs to be given to cleanliness and the sterility of the sprout area and process.

While on the subject, the general ‘guarantee’ in the current seed market (in California) is as follows: Out of a ten-pack of seeds, eight would be guaranteed to sprout. Of the eight that sprout, four should be female and four male and due to the law-of-odds ratios vary. Out of the ones that sprout, two female (and two male) should equal or exceed the strain description, again given the law of odds. So in other words, 40% of the plants from the seeds (really 50% given a 100% sprout rate) should equal or surpass the strain description. Ideally, one or all of the desirable parent plants are kept alive via clone copies or re-greening. These copies are capable of providing a lifetime of very satisfying medicine.

The small amount of variation in the strain was intentionally left to allow the end user the opportunity to explore and experiment. Full stabilization of one or two specific traits is possible via two further forward filial crosses. However, crossing beyond two further generations will acclimate most phenotype toward the current (usually indoor) environment and be more distant from its unique landrace origins. Remember: Most of the DJ Short lines are guaranteed f5’s from true region-of-origin landrace P1’s.

Regarding seed-sprout ratios, all of the DJ Short products go through rigorous testing before being sent to market. Wholesale sprout tests are done every six months to insure at least a 95% (most often 100%) sprout rate. Similar sprout tests are performed by some of the resale distributors with (hopefully) the same success rates. There was an issue with a batch of ‘Grape Krush’ that I’ve heard Chimera provided &/or replaced and hopefully that issue has been resolved. I am not yet aware of the full details. Perhaps Chimera would ‘chime’ in on this one?

Part of certain complaints regarding sprout rates may have to do more with climate conditions (heat) during transport and/or storage; live seeds hate excessive heat (>100-110 degrees F) especially for any extended periods of time. In route heat issues are not that uncommon, it’s simple as leaving the seeds in a sealed car on a sunny day. At any rate, this is my observation/advice regarding certain sprout rate issues—avoid excessive heat!

I hope that you find this information useful and may your future sprouting ventures prove fruitful!

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=227901

Regarding the ‘Uniqueness & Originality’ of My Work

Uniqueness and originality are highly sought after in many fields. The cannabis industry is no exception. This is why I offer true f5’s (fifth filial generation) from true landrace P1 origins. The P1 landrace tropical highland sativa were the main building blocks, thousands were grown out from which three candidates were selected to further breed with. The indica selection was simple as all were basic, stout, symmetric, skunk-y/musky plants of extreme, sedate potency. This stage transpired at the exact time that botanical HID lighting became commercially available to the general public (1978-’79).

The f1’s from this P1 cross, labeled; ‘the cross’ at the time, were uniform mid-representations of their parents. They were medium height sporting long, spear-shaped buds of a decent (marketable) density and a fully cacophonous odor spectrum. The f1’s were crossed with themselves to make the f2’s, labeled; ‘double cross’ at the time. In the f2’s and beyond is where the desirable variables presented themselves. The f2’s were also more of a numbers’ game in that several dozen had to be grown out to find and select the best few. The necessary number of seeds sprouted to find likely candidates decreased through the f3’s and f4’s until by the f5’s 50% of the stock could be guaranteed to equal or surpass the description. Remember, my primary criteria for judging herb is based on the effect of the finished product.

I’ve noted that beyond f6, certain specific traits may be bred for and further stabilized, but the plant begins to lose it’s unique ties to it’s ancestral heritage and begins to resemble another generation more phenotypic and acclimated to the relatively bland indoor grow environment. Herein lies the crux.

My integrity means very much to me. This includes the integrity of my brand, trademark and copyright. I am unable to judge the integral quality of something that is out of my hands. Therefore, I cannot, will not, give my blessings or authorization to anyone who chooses to use my work for commercial purposes without my expressed permission or involvement. It simply would not be a good business practice to do so.

When I did the selective work out from the f2’s, f3’s, f4’s etc., I did so with a very specific goal in mind—the effect of the finished product. Many more things were culled out and very few were selected for future work. One of the things I would not tolerate was bland potency, which is what many current ‘enthusiasts’ select for. This is why I must remain on guard regarding commercial knock-offs of my work.

So, if you want to get my attention, please, bring to one of my classes a bud from the plant grown from the seed you created—better yet, make that some hash! The proof is in the pudding, so to speak. But be prepared for honest criticism, I pull no punches when it comes to quality herb.

https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=227874

Springs
12-22-2011, 09:49 PM
hope he does the right thing and donates appropriately.

Green Supreme
12-28-2011, 07:10 AM
Today he posts this. Peace GS

On Judging Cannabis
c.2011 ‘DJ Short’

Let me begin by saying that I judge herb based primarily on the effect of the finished product, properly flushed, harvested, dried and cured. All other aspects of the plant or bud such as growth structure, flowering time, flavor, aroma, color, etc., are all secondary considerations compared to the effect of the finished product. This is one of the most important criteria for the selection process when breeding high quality cannabis.

It is important to note that throughout the process samples that do not surpass their counterparts are culled out, removed, eliminated. “Select the best and reject all others” is the first criteria met. This is again in regard to the sampling and effect of the finished product. Aspects that warrant elimination range from the obvious ‘lack’ of some quality or a ‘boring’ burnout to issues of over potency that cause unwanted side effects such as neuropathy, anxiety, various forms of ‘constriction’ or what I refer to as ‘clenchy-ness’ or a ‘clenchy’ feeling of body-load tightness, distracting bouts of stupefying lack of focus, etc. These aspects are eliminated, line ended (parent stock duly noted though).

One of the classic tests when comparing several different samples of cannabis is the ‘jar test’. Simply, different varieties are kept in separate jars and generally speaking the jar that empties first is usually the most desirable of the lot. This test works for a single individual doing the comparisons, or for a larger group. It is a simple test that mainly measures short-term desirability such as flavor or aroma and potency. To fully appreciate the finer, subtler aspects of cannabis quality a much longer testing period is required.

The basic objective characteristics that I look for when judging herb are primarily;

1. onset
2. duration
3. ceiling
4. tolerance threshold (burnout)
5. shelf life.
6. basic potency

These are the basic, measurable, aspects to first consider and record.

Onset refers to the amount of time it takes to fully feel the effects of a specific sample. Fast onset herb, herb whose effect is almost immediately felt, is most associated with the ‘rush’ effect whereas slow onset, or ‘creeper’ herb comes on more slowly, sometimes taking 30 to 45 minutes to be fully felt and appreciated.


My personal preference is for ‘creeper’ or slow type onset due to the fact that the effect from most quick onset herb is usually short-lived (30 to 90 minutes duration) whereas creeper herb’s effect may last for several hours. Slow onset herb also tends to have many more subtle characteristics beyond mere potency. This is the reason I do not appreciate the ‘cup’ mentality for judging herb where many different varieties are sampled over a brief period of time; often one joint immediately followed by another. This testing method, or the testing methods of anyone accustomed to quick onset herb, does not take into account the creeper effect of slow onset herb, the effect of which is often not noted until after the next variety is consumed.

It needs to be noted here, however, that the effect of any given herb is truly a matter of personal preference. For example, a person who is using cannabis medicinally to regulate or decrease their intake amount of opiate pain medication may appreciate a faster onset variety with a strong red-eye, couch-lock (sedate) appeal. Again, a matter of personal preference.

Personally, I prefer a slow onset (creeper) effect with a subtle-yet-potent long duration (3 to 5 hour) that is consistently pleasant, comfortable and functionally ‘dreamy’ that does not elicit any form of tolerance threshold or ‘burnout’ factor. That is, the same amount of product sampled should elicit the same effect over an extended period of time. I have been smoking ‘Blueberry’ now for over thirty years (!) and it actually takes less of an amount to give me the same effect over time. This is what is referred to as ‘tolerance threshold’. So generally speaking it takes me at least six months of testing to fully gauge the effect/value/quality of any given sample. Which leads to another important aspect of cannabis quality to consider, shelf life.

Shelf life simply refers to the amount of time a given bud holds its potency or character. From what I’ve gathered shelf life is both genetically and environmentally influenced. The genetics are self-explanatory and the environmental influences primarily involve proper curing and storage. Some bud will begin to deteriorate relatively quick, six months or so. Others, such as the strains I offer, tend to build character after a long, proper cure, up to several years! Currently my favorite flower is outdoor organically grown ‘Vanilluna’ cured for two to three years in glass. Smooth, creamy and dreamy yet clear and functional is how I describe the effect—my preference. For those interested in long-term quality storage containers, check out the violet glass collection at www.mmjars.com

‘Ceiling’ is a term used to describe the level of potency obtainable from a given sample. Simply put, a ‘high ceiling’ would indicate that the more one consumes of the sample, the greater the effect; whereas a ‘low ceiling’ would indicate that max effect is reached after a certain amount has been consumed. Some herb such as a heavy couch-lock indica provides its full effect after a few tokes and consuming more does little to expand the effect. And some soaring sativa has virtually no end to its effect the more one consumes of it, to the point of being full-on psychedelic.

Another important consideration regarding cannabis quality is testing the product under many different circumstances using different methods of delivery (ingestion). There are the early ‘wake-and-bake’ trials, or mid-morning first smoke, noon and afternoon consumption, pre- and post-dinner, evening and bedtime trials, active and passive modes as in social or alone, functional or sedate, etc. Then there is the choice of vaporizer, bubbler, pipe or joint, and of course the option to try edible tinctures, baked goods, etc. Another consideration, as mentioned in my book, is the possibility of testing the effect of a variety of herb during a mild psychedelic or meditative experience! Again, it takes me, at minimum, at least six-months to fully judge and gauge the quality of a given sample.

I tend to avoid, or cull out, what I refer to as ‘bland potency’—the distracting, stupefying, cloudy, etc., sensation associated with the effect of some cannabis. Basic potency testing is really a no-brainer; it’s as simple as finding the strongest effect with the least amount consumed or ingested. Parsing out the subtle characteristics from obviously potent herb, especially those characteristics that endure the tests of time, is the tricky part.

Which brings us to the concept of ‘character’, an important aspect to consider when judging herb. Issues of character are often more subjective in their analysis. Aspects of flavor, terpinous oils, aromas and odors may be objectively analyzed, but the psychoactive effects of a given sample may be difficult to ascertain, more complicated in recording, though time tends to pick her favorites. Which again points to the importance of thorough testing over time.

Character, for me, refers to satisfying those certain criteria that defines it. ‘Scratching the itch’ is one way of looking at it. As in, ‘that herb really scratches the itch’. To borrow a quote from an old friend, good herb gives one that consistent “warm and fuzzy hug from within”. These abstract definitions we assign to favorite herbal experiences (up/down, head/body, stimulating/sedate, etc.) are the growing foundations of a vocabulary that will define desirability and character into the future. We will share similarities with the wine and spirits industry, but our vocabulary will need to greatly increase to describe desired aspects of the unique effects that define character in our field. All of the variables, desirable or not, that pertain to the effect of the herb being tested need to be addressed. The development of defined character traits regarding the desirable effects of cannabis will be a slow, aesthetic, cultured endeavor. The details of this topic will fill an entire chapter, possibly a volume.

Most important, regardless of time of day or method of testing, is keeping and compiling adequate notes and records. Valid research and data are greatly needed in our fledgling industry. There is much we may contribute in this regard. Record all pertinent or possibly pertinent information, especially regarding onset, duration, ceiling, tolerance threshold, shelf life and general potency. Information relating to specific strains or methods of consumption as they relate to the relief experienced from specific ailments or conditions is also needed. There are a number of databases established online and the data is beginning to trickle in. Finally, issues of character pertaining to the desirability of the effect of the finished product need to be explored, mapped and defined. Interesting times, indeed! So much to do . . .