Ceramic Metal Halide vs. HPS

[Flyer]

Philips MasterColor Ceramic Metal Halide
HPS-Retro White Lamps

So maybe you have hear about the best grow light bulb on the market…or maybe not - but now you have! The Philips MasterColor Ceramic Metal Halide HPS-Retro White Lamps are something new to horticulture. These bulbs are being manufactured to replace high pressure sodium (HPS) bulbs in factories and warehouses. Along comes the indoor gardener who sees the light and gets them thinking - I bet these would grow great plants! Well they do.

Grow Light Express has been testing these lamps for years and has sold lots of them. We honestly believe in these lamps. We get asked all the time if this is such a great bulb why isn't Phillips directly selling / advertising them to the horticultural markets. Well the technical reason is that with this type of bulb they would have to retool their manufacturing plants at great costs. With the coming advanced in lighting technology (and there is really some amazing stuff heading our way) we believe that they are unwilling to spend the money until the market proves worth investing further in Ceramic Metal Halide technology.

The basics:

These bulbs can be used in BOTH vegetative and bloom cycles - no more changing lamps during your grow.

NO DIGITAL BALLASTS - you will destroy the bulb. ONLY use a standard coil and core HPS ballast (dont let the name confuse you). CMH bulbs cannot handle the frequencies of digital ballasts. Of course there are exceptions to this rule as there is at least one digital ballast that is designed to work with CMH lamps. They are fairly expensive and unless you know you have one of these you don't so don't try. The Ceramic Metal Halide bulbs are positional. This means that they are designed to be EITHER horizontal or vertical (they cannot be used universally) but not both. Placing the bulb in the wrong position will cause it to fail early. A tip to success is that most gardeners are reporting better success with the use of supplemental silica. Since these bulbs will make your plants grow fast, silica is helpful. Silica is involved in cell division and overall plant strength.

Benefits:

There are many benefits to these lamps. The main reason for even considering these lamps is the fantastic spectrum of light they produce. Check out the chart below to compare to output of a CMH to a HPS lamp.

http://www.growlightexpress.com/images/cmhvshps.jpg

As you can see there is a great deal of light energy available in the blue spectrum as well as the red. HPS lamps produce lots of light but its not the "right" light. It is true that plants can adapt and grow well under HPS but they will do better under CMH. Think of it this way, the sun, the light we are trying to reproduce inside, is full spectrum not just a lot of yellow / red. So why just give them yellow / orange? Basically HPS has become the standard for growing in supplied lighting conditions. This is mostly historical (now) because that was the best we had…now we have alternatives.

Other benefits include they "throw" less heat, they have very little color shift (less than 200K over their life time), your plants will have less stretch (tighter internodes).

Ceramic Metal Halide FAQ:

1. I have noticed that the Ceramic Metal Halide HPS Retro bulbs produce less lumens compared to other HPS bulbs?

A: Lumens is an antiquated way of comparing grow lamps. Lumens are a scientific definition based on the human eye and NOT on a plants response curve. This is the hardest part for people considering trying the CMH's to get past. We have been snowed over by the manufacturers just focusing on the max lumens.

2. When are bigger wattage bulbs going to be available?

A: Hum…sometime soon if Phillips keeps their promise! Also there is some new Ceramic Metal Halide technology on the horizon. This may keep bigger wattages of the market but the good news is that the new ones maybe extremely more efficient so you may not need bigger wattages. We will keep you posted on this!!

3. Will they run on my DIGITAL ballast?

A: NO (unless you have a specifically designed digital ballast for CMH lamps). They must be used in HPS ballast.


For additional information refer to the specification sheet for Ceramic Metal Halide Bulbs (http://www.growlightexpress.com/pdf/cmh.pdf) from Phillips.

Original article can be found here: http://www.growlightexpress.com/pages/ceramic-metal-halide-pv-c0-2.html

The main disadvantage of this bulb is that it currently is only available in 250W and 400W.

400W is $52.00 USD.

[GoKart Motzart]

sweeeet!...We've read up on these and they sound awesome. Have you had a chance to try them out?

[Flyer]

I have Lumatek digital ballasts currently so its not easy for me to test the bulbs. I am building a new 4' x 4' soon and plan on running two of these in the 400W ceramic metal halides. Though the SunPulse has a little better spectrum from bulb to bulb, allows color shifting tweaks, it's alot of work changing out all 4 bulbs during a grow season. This set up is much cheaper than my SunPulse setup and less work!:D

[Flyer]

As you can see in the graphs below, the SunPulse bulb has the flatest spectrum across line 40. The ceramic metal halide has slightly less than perfect full spectrum, but is priced at only 1/3rd the cost!


HORTILUX SUPER HPS EN Price: $94.95 per Each

http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=91&pictureid=809&thumb=1 (http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=91&pictureid=809)

HORTILUX - BLUE Price: $129.95 per Each

http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=91&pictureid=810&thumb=1 (http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=91&pictureid=810)

SunPulse Price: $124.95 per Each
http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=91&pictureid=814&thumb=1 (http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=91&pictureid=814)

MasterColor® Ceramic Metal Halide Price: $41.98 per Each

http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=91&pictureid=811&thumb=1 (http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=91&pictureid=811)

High Pressure Sodium
http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=91&pictureid=813&thumb=1 (http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=91&pictureid=813)
http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=91&pictureid=824&thumb=1 (http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=91&pictureid=824)
Ceramic Metal Halide
http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=91&pictureid=823&thumb=1 (http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=91&pictureid=823)

[Flyer]

So how about a real world solution you ask...

Right now the 'best' bulb and HID in terms of PAR is the Hortilux-Blue 1000MH...sorry about that to the HPS/lumens crowd...:p

The reasons I choose the Blue MH are based upon available and accurate scientific information (see thread starting post):
a) Lumens are not a factor in this choice as they are not an accurate measurment.
b)Photons (PPF/D) are not a factor in this choice as their measurements are not known.

*A bonus to MH is they are cooler running and cost less than HPS.

The Blue MH offers 45-50% relative energy (wavelength) within the blue PAR and 25-30% is in the red PAR. Not to mention that the whole PAR range is produced by the Blue MH.

-----------------------------------------

Spectral Graph of Hortilux Blue MH
(PAR range is 400-700nm)
http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/554/hortbluespecdm2.th.gif (http://img528.imageshack.us/my.php?image=hortbluespecdm2.gif)



great post
plants that mature in the fall outside of the tropics need more red light though, while tropical sativas should in theory do fine with more blue light all the way through


Interesting how the ceramic metal halide is slighly shifted to the red spectrum compaired to the Hortilux Blue metal halide.

[Springs]

good possible combo I think, the horti blue + phillips CMH.

[Flyer]

good possible combo I think, the horti blue + phillips CMH.



I ran HPS for years and it was hard for me to let go and try something new. You know, if it's not broken, don't fix it motto. If it wasn't for the all the heat issues I was dealing with, I think I would still have my HPS setups. It's going to take time for people to make the change.
Hind sight is always 20/20 and I do wish I would of gotten set up with cmh instead of my SunPulse bulbs. But even at the greater expense, it is still fun to dim the bulb down and phase shift the 6.4k bulb to 7.2 Kelvin.
I didn't really even consider the combo, but you could run both the Hortilux blue and the cmh at the same time in one of those dual hoods. I bet that would really work. Two 400W's with the spectrum efficiency should outperform a 1KW HPS, would be fun to experiment with.. :)

[memyselfandi]

from what i read in *cough* ICM the best is to combine a hps with a cmh.

there are a few experiments, but i think it's very difficult to a compare it, you need to replicate the exact env. in both grows.

[Flyer]

from what i read in *cough* ICM the best is to combine a hps with a cmh.

there are a few experiments, but i think it's very difficult to a compare it, you need to replicate the exact env. in both grows.


Could you please link me if you find it?

I often find confusion of regular metal halide with pulse start metal halides and ceramic metal halides. In fact, if you look at Rollitup (http://www.rollitup.org/indoor-growing/50429-theory-cmh-hps.html), you will see that it looks like they have all three confused in one post. Regular metal halides are heavy in the blue spectrum, where as ceramic metal halides tend to roll higher in the red.


Ceramic Metal Halide
(CMH) technology was introduced to the lighting industry. Like most new lighting technologies, it has taken some time for these great new lamps to be universally adopted, but today you can find them almost anywhere. CMH lamps were introduced to provide a high quality, energy efficient, alternative to incandescent and halogen light sources. In order to accomplish this, the lamp technology had to solve many of the problems inherent in older style quartz metal halide lamps such as high lumen depreciation, low color rendition, and poor color consistency. We’ve all seen projects in which some of the metal halide lamps look white, some blue, some pink, etc. By contrast, CMH lamps offer high CRI (Color Rendering Index) values in the 80-90 range, color temperatures of 3000K or 4100K, and are guaranteed not to color shift more than +/- 200k over the rated lamp life. They also have improved lumen maintenance characteristics. CMH lamps are available in ranges from 20 watts through 400 watts, and in most standard configurations including ED17, PAR20, PAR30, PAR38, and T6. One of the newest types is designed specifically as a direct lamp retrofit for 400 watt High Pressure Sodium lamps. This retrofit offers far better color quality without requiring the replacement of existing ballasts.

• Accent Lighting

Accent lighting has traditionally been dominated by incandescent and halogen sources due mainly to excellent color quality, source flexibility, and good optical control. Standard Metal Halide and color corrected High Pressure Sodium lamps have been used as energy efficient replacements for some accent lighting applications with mixed success. Problems with color quality and consistency have been limitations of these lamp technologies. CMH lamps overcome most of the problems of the older style energy efficient lamps while producing crisp light with excellent color rendition and optical control that is almost identical to halogen sources. In fact, many of the available CMH lamp types have been specifically designed to be optically equivalent to the halogen sources they are designed to replace.

• Color Critical Applications

While the color rendition of CMH lamps is excellent, spaces like museums or galleries have specific requirements. While the light that is being delivered is perceived as “white,” the spectral distribution of the source is not truly continuous like sunlight or halogen light. Some colors may be slightly muted while others are enhanced changing the perception of art.

• Benefits

More efficient than halogen
More efficient than high pressure sodium
More efficient than mercury vapor
Better color quality than Standard MH
Better color consistency than Standard MH
Lower operating cost
Lower bulb cost

• Drawbacks
Requires a ballast
Higher initial cost for e-ballast
Not easily dimmable
Requires restrike time


Up to date data sheet (http://www.nam.lighting.philips.com/us/ecatalog/hid/pdf/p-5497.pdf) :kind:

[Flyer]

Just ordered two 400W cmh and a couple of powerhouses. I'll post updates once I get growing with them. :)

[memyselfandi]

the thread
ICMag (http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=72215&highlight=Ceramic+Metal+Halide)

[Flyer]

the thread
ICMag (http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=72215&highlight=Ceramic+Metal+Halide)

That's a great thread over there at IC, tons of good information there. Thanks for finding that for us. Found it comical when Pontiac trys to hijack with a pulse metal halide conversation.

[Lundin]

lol

[memyselfandi]

i love to get my hands on one of there babys

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTGsM9pplUs

[Flyer]

Those look very nice, we will have to wait and see what the actual emitting spectrum really is. I imagine it is around 6000 Kelvin which is what he states in the video. If nothing else, will be a less expensive way to the veggetative process someday.

[Flyer]

Took a drive out to the desert to help Frogz set up his new Cmh light rig. I was surprised to see that the light was very warm looking compared to most metal halides. Not as orange as my SunPulse 3k, but it was cooler in output temperature than even my SunPulse 6.4k. The hood we used was Hydrofarm's daystar ac which gave a great spread of light.

Unfortunately after only one cycle, the bulb stopped working. Luckily we had a second bulb which seems to be working now. I think future purchases of the bulbs will come from Advanced tech lighting.

http://advancedtechlighting.com/cdmed18.htm

We are the Only Company to Pre-burn all lamps!
Each Receive 3, 12 hour burn cycles to ensure the cermets seal is seated properly. This is 100% Needed as there is a High initial failure rate. If this is done you are sure to have a full life from your lamp

Talked to a friend of mine who operates a million dollar/year hydro store here and he said his customers are saying the 250w cmh's transfer energy like 400w hps. I took it as just hersay and I will have to test it for myself.

I read somewhere that the US Navy uses these bulbs in their submarines. Again, hersay, I don't know if it is true, but apparently we need light close to the sun's normal spectrum to fuction aswell.. ;)

[Flyer]

Tossed the light up just to test it, litterally in a garage.. Plants were stringy and sick prior to lighting with cmh. Plants are doing much better now in about a weeks time. Ceramic metal halides have a very warm-white appearance, unlike most bluish standard metal halide bulbs.

http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=90&pictureid=858&thumb=1 (http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=90&pictureid=858)

[spaceman]

real interested in these, want to try a 1000 if they ever appear //./

[Springs]

yeah me too, definitely would be nice if there was a 1000w version.

thanks for the update flyer:tiphat:

[Flyer]

Ah... Nothing like the smell of a fresh 4x4 tent being baked by a cmh, just waiting for its new aeroponic system.. lol

http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=91&pictureid=905&thumb=1 (http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=91&pictureid=905)

Some pictures below, testing of the new plumbing for the system that will be ran in this tent. Single Danner 18 running both spray bars. :bong2:

http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=104&pictureid=906&thumb=1 (http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=104&pictureid=906)http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=104&pictureid=908&thumb=1 (http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=104&pictureid=908)http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=104&pictureid=907&thumb=1 (http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=104&pictureid=907)
http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=104&pictureid=910&thumb=1 (http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=104&pictureid=910)http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=104&pictureid=909&thumb=1 (http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=104&pictureid=909)

[Flyer]

Growzilla may be the answer to having to use two 400w ceramic metal halides instead of a single 1kw.



http://prostores2.carrierzone.com/stores/h/hydrogardendelightcom/catalog/growzilla.jpg

http://hightimes.com/grow/agrossman/594

[c-ray]

for now

[Flyer]

Today I spent an hour on the phone with the owner of Advancedtechlighting “Tom”.

He tells me that both Phillips and GE will be discontinuing the manufacturing of high pressure sodium bulbs. He said that ceramic metal halide are far more efficient than high pressure sodium and will be taking the market. Tom tells me that I will not be disappointed growing with the cmh bulbs. He did mention that the vegetative time will be shorter and the plants would flower sooner due to the higher energy transfer.

Ceramic metal halide bulbs have a high failure rate for initial startup and cycling. For this reason, http://advancedtechlighting.com pre-burns the bulb for three cycles to ensure you are getting a fully working bulb. And as a plus, they warranty the bulb for 18months (longer than the manufacture does).

Also, you will need a high quality ballast to fire the cmh bulb. Frogz and I have tested this to be true by trying to use a Hydrofarm Xtrasun which did not work. The Powerhouse ballasts and the Sunsystem 1 by Sunlight Supply work beautifully with ceramic metal halide bulbs. If these ballasts are too expensive for your budget, Advancedtechlighting sells a ballast kit for $58.

Tom finished stating that growing under a ceramic metal halide is the same as growing outdoors under the real sunlight.

European Supplier: http://www.cp-lighting.co.uk/GE-CMH400-TT-UVC-U-830-E40-3-000K

[Flyer]

So we spent most of the week here and there getting the cmh grow up and running. I swear to gawd if Frogz asks me to help with another rubbermaid grow, he will get a million fu's PB style!

Sorry about the funky lines on the pics, I will take new pictures soon with a better camera.

[Springs]

cool deal, is that a dual hood? What strain?

Thats some build up though " same as growing with the sun "

[Flyer]

BlackJack is the strain growing. Just out of the cloner as pictured.

It's just a single Daystar AC hood 400w. We decided against the dual bulb hood and we are mechanically attaching two Daystar AC hoods together for better light angles. :8)

[Flyer]

Well it's been two weeks since the blackjack girls were planted. We flipped them to 12/12 and they are coming along. Been cold out in the desert recently and the water has been a chilly 52 degrees until just recently we added a heater and brought the water to 68F. We added an additional 400w cmh and are now running at 800w. I am actually impressed with the energy transfer from the cmh bulbs, they do seem to have an equivalence to about 1200w in hps (400w=600whps). Added a couple of switched outlets to the power bar to help Frogz when changing nutrients out.

http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=91&pictureid=977&thumb=1 (http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=91&pictureid=977)http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=91&pictureid=976&thumb=1 (http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=91&pictureid=976)
http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=91&pictureid=975&thumb=1 (http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=91&pictureid=975)http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=91&pictureid=974&thumb=1 (http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=91&pictureid=974)http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=91&pictureid=973&thumb=1 (http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=91&pictureid=973)

[memyselfandi]

found a supplier in Europe

http://www.interlampadas.pt/ they sell them on order

[Flyer]

I wouldn't normally post a reply with pictures after only a week later, but I wanted to show growth during this cmh test. Deffinately feeling cmh envy..

http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=90&pictureid=993&thumb=1 (http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=90&pictureid=993)

[spaceman]

very nice we watch keenly.,.,

[hazedaze]

http://www.bulbsnlighting.com/1000-watt-263-volt-bt56-bulb-mogul-base-3700k-ceramic-metal-halide-mh1000-u.html

^ 38 bucks..... but you say my Xtrasun ballast won't work?

[c-ray]

don't come a knockin when the grow room's a rockin

[Springs]

http://www.bulbsnlighting.com/1000-watt-263-volt-bt56-bulb-mogul-base-3700k-ceramic-metal-halide-mh1000-u.html

^ 38 bucks..... but you say my Xtrasun ballast won't work?

Dude! Sweet find, thats a 1000 watter!

Unless they changed something others CMH require an old HPS magnetic ballast.

Thanks!

[plantbuilder]

fuck

[Flyer]

http://www.bulbsnlighting.com/1000-watt-263-volt-bt56-bulb-mogul-base-3700k-ceramic-metal-halide-mh1000-u.html

^ 38 bucks..... but you say my Xtrasun ballast won't work?

The bulb you listed is a Switch Start MH Std 1000W Mog BT56 CL. This was mismarked on their website. I have only found 50, 70, 150, 250 and 400w cmh so far. The smaller cmh lamps would work great for seedlings and clones. I would much rather use a small cmh than a T5 or LED setup.

As far as Xtrasun ballasts go, we tested on this Xtrasun ballast: http://www.hydrofarm.com/pb_detail.php?itemid=7624
At first, the bulb would not work with the ballast, but further tests and we did indeed get the ceramic metal halide to fire and stay lit.

Cheaper hps ballasts that use aluminum wiring in their transformers are the units that have problems. So if your transformer is the old heavy type and you have a high quality cap and ignitor, more than likely it is going to work.

[Flyer]

I have had a few people ask me if I thought that the cmh 3K was better than the cmh 4k?
Below is a chart from Philips showing the spectral graphs of 3K and 4K. I always look across the 40 line to see how much is filled in or not. I think you could grow with either one, but the 4K might have a more full spectrum.

http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=91&pictureid=994&thumb=1 (http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=91&pictureid=994)

[Harvester]

Any chance any of these would run on a 430W HPS ballast?

H

[Springs]

thanks for the clarification... one day...

[Flyer]

Any chance any of these would run on a 430W HPS ballast?

H

It should work, but you would be overdriving the bulb by 7.5%, so you wouldn't get the normal life expectancy. To know for sure, I would contact advanced tech lighting.

http://advancedtechlighting.com/contact.htm

Frogz and I have been debating on purchasing these ballast kits: http://www.advancedtechlighting.com/71a8453.htm
At 69 dollars each for Advanced kits (Advanced ballasts are the best) its a steal. Our idea was to toss one or more of these into a small computer case: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811164143 Fan cooled, you could probably stuff quite a few into one case.

[c-ray]

maybe you can run a really long lamp cord to compensate (kidding)

[Harvester]

Ok I sent them an email...This would save me some money if it will work! I was going to upgrade to 600w Digital ballast before I caught this thread.

H

[Harvester]

Wow! Advancedtechlighting just took #1 spot for customer service IMO...I coulda talked to Tom all day long...a very knowledgeable and personable guy, I could go on and on...

Anyhow...Although the 430w is "over-driving" the bulb and it will void the warranty, the bottom line is that the failure rate will simply be a little higher and I should keep a spare bulb handy...Also, instead of using the bulb for another couple extra grows since the CMH bulb lasts longer(under normal use conditions)...I should continue to replace bulbs at the same interval as I was before due to the fact that I'm over-driving it...

He also told me that if it ever gets to be a problem, he can explain to me how to change out a capacitor and lower my ballast to 400w output.

So either way, this looks like the best option for me...I'm due for a couple new bulbs anyhow...

So...Out with the Hortilux...in with the CMH.

Thanks for starting this thread!!! Saved me a net of about $500 on a ballast and 2 Hortilux bulbs while also steering me towards a better product.

H

[hazedaze]

Ah,bummer on the 1000..... I think I'll get a 400.

[Flyer]

Well I'm glad that Tom was able to help you out Harvester, he is a pretty knowledgable guy when it come to lighting. Tom sells really high qaulity ballasts and parts. He also sells nice electronic dimmable ballasts for cmh.

I took another snapshot yesterday of the plants 5 days later from the last picture. I am very happy with the accelerated growth we are getting.

http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=90&pictureid=995&thumb=1 (http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=90&pictureid=995)

Also Frogz and I modified the two daystar ac hoods to fit together as one unit. I will snap a couple of shots tomorrow. :)

[Flyer]

Holymountain's completed 400w cmh grow, very nice.

SHIT-400w CMH MOD-Scrog in 40"x 40" Tent--Organics

http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/shit/3992-shit-400w-cmh-mod-scrog-40-x-40-tent-organics.html

http://www.mrnice.nl/photos/data/707/thumbs/7-28-2010_shit5.jpg (http://www.mrnice.nl/photos/showphoto.php/photo/17194/title/shit-garden/cat/707)

http://www.mrnice.nl/photos/data/707/thumbs/7-28-2010_shit3.jpg (http://www.mrnice.nl/photos/showphoto.php/photo/17191/title/shit-bud/cat/707)
http://www.mrnice.nl/photos/data/707/thumbs/Shit_3_7-14-2010.jpg (http://www.mrnice.nl/photos/showphoto.php/photo/17160/title/shit-3/cat/707)

http://www.mrnice.nl/photos/data/707/thumbs/Shit_3_harvest.jpg (http://www.mrnice.nl/photos/showphoto.php/photo/17282/title/shit-3-main-cola/cat/707)

[Harvester]

On the 1000w...

Based on what Tom told me...there will never be a 1000w version of this bulb...mainly because of safety. The amount of pressure inside one of these things would blow it through a wall! And the element retains heat for so long that in their experiments...they intentionally blew one up and the fragments burned the concrete floor.

And as far as Horticulture use goes...Tom told me that there is so much useable energy in one of these 400w bulbs that a 1000w light would hurt the plants...you'd have to raise the 1000w light way up!

I have always preferred 2 lights to 1...so for me...I am very excited. I use my 430's over a 7' x 3.5' space...which with the HPS wasn't "quite" enough...

Initially I thought it would be awesome to do a side-by-side with one of my existing bulbs and one of these...But for 1...I'm totally convinced these are the way to go...and for 2...both my Hortilux bulbs are at the end of their useful life already. It wouldn't be a fair comparison unless I spent money on another Hortilux bulb that I don't need.

H

[c-ray]

werd up harvester, good work

any news on the 600w?

[Harvester]

Nothing was mentioned about a 600w, but I didn't specifically ask either...maybe Flyer has that info...

All I know is I can't wait to start postin some pics once I get going again. I'll be legal in 10 more days. Feels like a long time right now...especially since I can't afford to buy anything.

H

[Flyer]

On the 1000w...

Based on what Tom told me...there will never be a 1000w version of this bulb...mainly because of safety. The amount of pressure inside one of these things would blow it through a wall! And the element retains heat for so long that in their experiments...they intentionally blew one up and the fragments burned the concrete floor.

And as far as Horticulture use goes...Tom told me that there is so much useable energy in one of these 400w bulbs that a 1000w light would hurt the plants...you'd have to raise the 1000w light way up!

I have always preferred 2 lights to 1...so for me...I am very excited. I use my 430's over a 7' x 3.5' space...which with the HPS wasn't "quite" enough...

Initially I thought it would be awesome to do a side-by-side with one of my existing bulbs and one of these...But for 1...I'm totally convinced these are the way to go...and for 2...both my Hortilux bulbs are at the end of their useful life already. It wouldn't be a fair comparison unless I spent money on another Hortilux bulb that I don't need.

H


As far as safety goes, I would never run one of these bulbs in an open-wing type reflector in the very rare case that a bulb fractured. The outer glass on a cmh bulb is very hard and with the one bulb I did see explode, the outer glass did contain the debris. Still, for safety, the safety glass on an air cooled hood is best. If you have to use an open wing reflector, please invest in auto firing fire extinguishers.

As far as running a 1000w cmh goes, it would be nice, but we have to use 400w'rs for now and two of them side by side in sepperate hoods is nothing short of amazing. I like the growzilla, but in reviews it had some weak numbers. In the pictures below, Frogz and I literally used an aluminum plate, 12" x 27" x .25" thick and bolted two Hydrofarm Daystar AC hoods together. I like these hoods because they are small, compact and offer the largest spread of light for aircooled non-tube hoods. Two of these hoods together offer twice the light angles as a singular hood.

Normally, I would use a 1kw hps for a 4x4 growing area. As you can see in the previous post, Holymountain used only one 400w cmh in a approximate 4x4 area with great sucess. Two 400w cmh's caused an explosion of plant growth in our 4x4 area.

Unfortunately, this might be the end of my cmh test for now. We had a large grower visit to see the cmh lights and he ended up buying our black jacks in this particular grow out from under us. I may continue on with og18 soon to restart the test as soon as we trade out the bj.

I have no doubt that this light setup is the wave of the future. More plant energy per electric watt. Lots of other growers have been using cmh's sucessfully for many years now. And though there are still others who disagree with the use of cmh's, I'm glad I don't pay their utility bill. ;)



http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=90&pictureid=997&thumb=1 (http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=90&pictureid=997)http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=90&pictureid=998&thumb=1 (http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=90&pictureid=998)http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=90&pictureid=996&thumb=1 (http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=90&pictureid=996)

[c-ray]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PUuyMd3r5Xk

[Flyer]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4JUIs2-_zE&feature=related

[SCARHOLE2]

Love my CMH!
It ownes in veg.
I run a small blue Hortilux HPS an CMH 2 bulb set up.
Im going to try flowering with all CMH as soon as my HPS gets old.

Glad I had old magnetic ballasts.

The advanced lighting guys. Never answered my calls to order, so I went with 1000 bulbs.com.
They have the Phillips HPS an MH versions cheeper.
An I've used em alot they are great.

[c-ray]

They have the Phillips HPS an MH versions cheeper.


do you mean cheaper than advanced lighting?

[Diamond2.0]

I switched to cmh in 03 from HPS and im never going back . In one room i run a triple bulb hood with all 400 cmhs. I'd rather run it than my other room with an agrosun deluxe 1000 . I tried using 2 cmh and one hps but quickly went back . Didnt see the need .

[SCARHOLE2]

do you mean cheaper than advanced lighting?

Yep, 10-15$ cheeper an great customer svc.

[Harvester]

I'm wanting a 3rd light for my 7' x 3.5' grow. For now I'm going to put a couple of 150w HPS fixtures inbetween the 2 CMH since I already have them, but I want another 400w ...and I want to replace my reflectors. heck maybe with better reflectors I wouldn't need a 3rd light.

H

[spaceman]

more light! more light! more light!

[Harvester]

back to the age old question...how much is enough... and is there too much...

no doubt that I could use a 3rd HID light (more than the little 150w yard lights)...but what should it be? should I just put a 600w Hortilux in-between the 2 400w CMH?

I wouldn't call that over-kill...but it seems like it would push the envelope as far as being worth it to buy it, supply it with electricity, and deal with the extra heat....

I'm thinking that adding a 400w hortilux would be plenty...

input?

[c-ray]

normally I like to apply the following formula:
a 400w covers 2x2 feet square or a 3 foot circle
a 600w covers 3x3 feet square or a 4 foot circle
a 1000w covers 4x4 feet square or a 5-6 foot circle

but a 400w cmh puts out as much light as a 600w

[disciple]

:)

[Flyer]

I've actually had some time to play with my cmh's. I have two 400w bolted together as seen in previous pictures. This amount of light is plenty for use in a 5x5 tent. I have noticed that during flowering cycles, the buds start and stop growing continuously and are growing so large and dense that their weight is difficult to hold up, even with supports. The amount of electricity used to energy transferred to the plants is greatly increased using cmh. One set of bulbs, the entire grow, only have to change the time. Now that's nice.
:fly:

[monkey5]

Flyer, Thank you for posting all this up! I will be using this information when building my new room once I am moved to my legal spot! How do you like the finnished product? With using CMH over the finnished product from HPS? Have you finnished the same strains under both set ups? Very interested to know about your final products? Taste, smell, High? Thank you in advance for the answers! monkey5

[Brick Top]

Can anyone tell me what benefit comes from the amount of spectrum/wavelength CMH bulbs put off that plants either do not use or use extremely little of?

A bulb, any bulb of any wattage, will only be capable of putting off so much light. Is there a benefit to be found by reducing the most useful spectrums/wavelengths to plants that any given bulb can put out by making one that puts out some percentage of spectrum/wavelength that plants either do not use or use extremely little of?

The CMH is advertised to put of light more like that of the sun. Well, the sun puts off all sorts of wavelengths that plants do not use at all and some plants use extremely little of. So how is being more sun-like a real plus?

Doesn't it make more sense to flood plants with the absolute maximum amount of spectrum/wavelength they need/use the most at different stages of growth than to reduce that but add spectrum/wavelength that is useless or nearly useless to plants?

[c-ray]

how do we know that the spectrums of the sun that plants use very little of (according to scientific studies) are actually not super important.. we don't, not yet anyways.. all we can do is try things out and see in our hearts and minds where the real truth lies (ie practial experience)

[Brick Top]

A few charts to use to compare the CHM wavelength/spectrum to.

[Flyer]

Well, we have been growing with the ceramic metal halides for awhile now and have found that 800 watts per 4 foot square is way too much. We have cut down to 400 watts per 4x4 is perfect. :fly:

[c-ray]

wow!

[Flyer]

What was happening was that the veg was nice and fast, but when we went to flower, our plants begin to flower and then stop, then restart again, then stop. But each time they restarted during the flowering process, the next cola was even larger which eventually was breaking apart the one below it. Ever heard of buds too big? We have now. No matter which species we switched to, the same was happening. Bottom line was that the plants were not able to support the flower growth.

Other things that were changed was the aeroponics. We stopped using sprayers for growing completely and went back to Flyerponics. Basically flood and drain with massive air slurry in the both the reservoir and flood tray. This turned out to be nearly as fast as sprayers, without the headaches of maintaining pressure.

I have been looking into a new system of flood and drain which is pump-less, basically using the old air bubble drip system, but on a massive scale. Even the best pumps are a head ache long term.

:smoke2:

[Robert Fortune]

Flyer, can these be run in open fixtures? I've been looking at these for a while now.

Why are the lamp makers not pushing these for Hort applications? My first thought is that they have too much money tied up in the other technology. It's always about the money, you know.

Thanks!

R.Fortune

[DrScrog]

IMO CMH is out to get smoked compared to HPS i know of a grower that purchased allot of CMH and his yield dropped compared to his normal
HPS grows i like other people spending there money on things like this rather then wasting my own money
Now personally HPS and MH mixed now that would be a perfect yielder combination

[Flyer]

Yes, you can run CMH in an open fixture. I have HPS, I have tons of them, don't use them anymore, they cost too much to run. I use a 400 watt cmh for a 5x5. It costs me 1000 watts in HPS to get the same yield. Use whatever you wish, I like saving money these days. :o