Wattage and yield.

[Brick Top]

I don

[Lugen007]

First thats like asking if a 1g is heavier at 1000g, or at 250g. A gram is a gram, a watt is a watt....lol.

1g per watt is all it's saying.

[meloyelo]

yeah Brick Top across the board.
-melo

[grasshopper]

while it may be across the board
i'd think the 1000 watt would produce more then 4 times the 250
due to the larger depth of area that has the footcandles that support growth

fwiw

[jaharvester]

First off, i think a good gardiner is any gardiner, period.

So no matter what your a good gardiner.

1000 grams for 1000 watts includes proper feeding sceduals, co2, envirnment, pst controls, tempature, p.h, medium, how much you care and most importantly experiance, not to mention

genetics.......

Even more important than wattage and footcandles are lumens and distance.
Lumens, the mesurement of light a plant uses to produce the proccesses neccissary for photosynthisis.(rough definition).

Lumens are greatly diminished as the light moves mere inches away from the plant canopy, thus heat must be controlled to keep that light as close as possible, thus using said "lumens" effectivly.

This is the reason 600 watters work so great for so many applications.
At at least 75,000-90,000 lumens, these babies produce LESS THAN HALF THE HEAT OF A 1000 WATTER,!!!!!

So do the math.
2=600 watters(150,000 lumens)
1=1000 watter (135,000 lumens)

Roughly the same heat????

Now your talking yeild!

I no longer can afford to run 600 watters, but if i could, i would...

Hope this helps... Good Grow!!!

[Elohim is plural]

...actually i think the question touches on some misconceptions...

...i will guarantee you that 4-250w will out preform 1-1000w...the 1000w is the least efficient on the market, so a watt is not always a watt, per se...

...really the question should be gram per watt per square foot...verticle growing taught me that...

...in my opinion, if you are getting a gram/watt in a flat garden then you are doing good...not great but you aren't really fucking up...

...in a verticle garden, you should be able to maintain twice that amount at least...your light source is sread out and you more than double your square footage...radiant heat becomes less of an issue...but proper pruning becomes more of an issue...as well as ambiant heat...different solutions lead to higher gram/watt ratios...

...just my opinion...
EIP

[grasshopper]

well now :)
if your going to go with lumens
you might wants to use ones that are actually at the right frequency
say 420-480nm and 630-680nm instead of 550 nm lol

fwiw

edit to say:
i didn't see you sneak in there eip

[plantbuilder]

i was always fond of pound per light (1kw) = approx .45 gpw

[c-ray]

howabout something that takes account of gram per watt, per square foot, and per week of flowering

[plantbuilder]

c'mon that is not why this thread was started lol was it brick?
are we really going to...?
square foot.... lol
anyways i think i will stay out of this one at least untill uncle ben gets here lol
just do well
peace
plantbuilder

[Stevus]

Hmm.. Interesting thread

[Lugen007]

1kw may be inefficent, but they will shine through the canopy and hit the lower branches....even though 600w will give you even light distribution over the canopy. I think 1kw are the way to go....

[markscastle]

What happens when you add a suntwist and use two 1000 k with co2 good organic nutes,proper care,good venting,temp ,humidity,and some fine genes? Gess I`ll just have to wait and see for myself.

[grasshopper]

What happens when you add a suntwist and use two 1000 k with co2 good organic nutes,proper care,good venting,temp ,humidity,and some fine genes? Gess I`ll just have to wait and see for myself.


5-10 lbs


fwiw

[Lugen007]

5-10lbs with 2kw, on his first grow? lol....

If you get 2lbs off of 2kw on your first go, you're ahead of the game!!

[chodo]

The main thing I've found to improve yeild is to add a seperate veg room and flower room. One you get perpetual, then the amount with the same light is far better in the amount of time you are doing it.

[grasshopper]

5-10lbs with 2kw, on his first grow? lol....

If you get 2lbs off of 2kw on your first go, you're ahead of the game!!


is this mc's first grow?
regardless
lugen if you are getting 2 lbs off 2k watts with a twister and co2?:)
you need to spend more time here reading :)

fwiw

[Lugen007]

I thought that this was his first grow? And was telling him that to get 2lbs off of 2kw would be a good start.....

[Carpet Muncher]

The main thing I've found to improve yeild is to add a seperate veg room and flower room. Once you get perpetual, then the amount with the same light is far better in the amount of time you are doing it.

listen to chodo.

even if you have the money/space run 100wpsf and have the strain to match.. if you don't keep it flowing, the little ant will out-yield you in a yr. (w/out stats to back it up, but guessing 30% less wattage and same yield loss.. same amount of plants.)

[jaharvester]

I think alot of people are full of it on the yeilds they recieve......my 2 cents.
Im sure many people will say im just not doing something right, but in ten years i think i do.......

[chodo]

Well, here's my typical yeild stats for different system's and similar strains:

Coliseum 3-5#'s, this is 3 for people who didn't take care of it and 4-5# for me.
KFB - 18#'s and 19#'s off 12 plants 12kw
Flood trays - 3#'s 3600w's. I got like 3 400ws over 3 3x3 trays when I was a newbie.
DWC and coliseum - 5kw grow, 2 in bubblers and 3kw in coliseum ended up with right at 8#'s.
DWC in my attic w/ no a/c dead of the summer grow lots of fans, first good grow... 12oz off a 1kw light.
I've been in plenty of other gardens, and done some mild sog on trays... the bottom line is, when you double your rooms potential by not veggin in it, that's when yeilds will increase over the time you are doing it. You are essentially doubling or atleast 1.5'ing your yeild.

[Joe King Park]

Bricktop; you've got a point there
and defineatly worth discussion
what first came to mind was the word " penetration"
hang on , the topic is Cultivation, OK ? don't go there, lol
a 1000 watt bulb has a massive penetration ( absorbtion of light, with enough saturation to reach the lower extremeties of the plant) something a paltry 250 HPS or halide could never achieve , no matter how close one attempted to place above their plants without burning them, or at least , stressing them
right now, a 600 HPS digital ( no halide available yet ) cannot be beat, and at the end of the day, through the proccess of chlorophyl production through a selected photoperiod, a 600 HPS Digital ballast delivers 7 more useable watts than a conventional 1000 watt ballast,!! whilst also saving 25% off the electricity bill !
the 600 HPS digital ballast is cooler, quieter, and makes your Grolux- Son T plus 10% Brighter!

having said all that, excluding Coli's / vertical growing, aim for a more conservative figure of 0.5 grammes per watt
Sure , as you progress , with ways of manipulation ( SOG / SCROG, etc ), then a Gramme per watt becomes possible
once you have perfected your particular technique, then don't be suprised when you someday realise 2 G's per watt !!!!!!!!!!!!
if you are dedicated enough , and have the right strain , then these figures are perfectly possible

i think when looking back over what i have written; what immediatly is paramount is " Dedication" , by finding what works best for you
once you've reached that stage , well, you've completed your "apprenticeship", and become a bonafide tradesman cultivar
where almost anything is possible
but,
if you lose that "Dedication", and of course ambition, your yields will reflect a dramatic loss
Thats Life
Joe

[Green Supreme]

Nice dicussion,Good topic.Just curious though,does anyone else wait till their done to start counting.I find it leads to less dissappointment.

[Lugen007]

Interesting discussion....

So the digital 600w HPS are 25% more efficent then 1kw's? That's interesting, so if you want to run more lights you're better off with these. Werent they having a problem with the ballast catching fire or something?

[jaharvester]

600 watters are the best for many reasons.
Many people do not realize that these lights are the only high intensity discharge application specifically created for plant growth.(when remote ballast h.i.d lighting was created, 25,50,100,125,150,200,250,400,1000,2000 watt applications already exsisted.

the lumen/watt ratio cant be beat, neither can the distance these babies
can be from YOUR babies.......

The dowside is you need more to cover more distance, and they are very expensive.

I think genetics have alot to do with yeild....also

[Joe King Park]

Hi Lugen007 , no , actually they have 7 more "mean" lumens than a 1000 watt conventional coil type ballast
you save 25% on your power bill so in theory you can run four lights for the price of three, whilst getting 10% extra lumens from each bulb
its tantamount to getting your cake and eating it too
heres a link which will explain more www.growell.co.uk
click new products or lighting
heres a little image of a dual cannatronics 600 HPS with enclosed contactor-relay and internal timer
very tidy
JKP

[Carpet Muncher]

nifty gadget. it would be good for 2 side by side cabinets?
unless they strobe and it covers a 3x6 table? :)
$968 us.. not bad.

[Lugen007]

What about for larger setup's, what are they using?

example:
40amp breaker can handle 8 - 1kw at 240v = 35amp, and 8000w
same breaker 16 -600w at240v = 40amps and 9600w.

Will those 600w's be able to produce that much more final product in order to compensate for the initial cost of buying double the ballasts?!?!

[Joe King Park]

Oh , yes , like LED's ( we'll go their later ) the initial cost will be recouped within a year or less ( LED- 6 months or less !! )
Cannatronics systems are renowned for their quality
and were the only ones offering a five year warranty on their products, as opposed to PowerPlant only offering two, max !

and yes , Lugen 007, they draw less amps than conventional ballasts, making them stealthy as well
i'm not sure if cannatronics site is up, but we'll see www.cannatronics.com

Joe

[Joe King Park]

oh well, you can read up on them in the two previous links provided
i'll find their new website soon
in the meantime i suggest elements hydroponics , as they are a main dealer for Cannatronics
their fluoro systems are really good also , and for propo/ veg ( to 30 cm's ) are highly reccomended
but my personal favourite, having once owned a pair ( talking about side to side cabinets ) "WHITEFIRES" from www.growthtechnology.com
110 watts, seperate ballast, dual fibreglass reflectors, 840 daylight tubes ( 20 inches)
9,600 lumens
click lighting
JKP

[Joe King Park]

OOOO !!
i love it when they have new stuff ( see Nebulas- "Link It" )
much cheaper than those T5's , T8's , or whatever they're called ( and still unavailable in UK ???? )
anyhoo, off to read GT link
Joe

[Glass Man]

Joe,
Can you (Mr GroRoom Search Engine!) find those 600 digi ballasts somewhere cheap? I wonder when the Chinese will start making them?

They sure sound great. Tell us about the L.E.D.s Should we think about the digi 600's or hold out a little while longer and get the L.E.D.s ? Man when the price gets right on those we be able to "wallpaper" our cabinets with those cool running little boogers. Sure will make indoor heat issues disappear. Wonder when the Chinese will start making those??

[Brick Top]

Joe, I was wondering if you knew much about the RainForest 66 Aeroponics System. I

[Joe King Park]

Glassman, hi there
i know Digi Ballasts are cheaper in North America, maybe try this link www.bcnorthernlights.com

Bricktop; thats the General hydroponics version?
very nice , and GH quality!
not sure of GH prices?

i would have a looksee here at the new aero system ( these guys were the first to sell hydro products (NFT) to the masses )
www.nutriculture.com or also worth a mention are the Aeroflo's from www.growthtechnology.com

LED's will not come down in price for a few years , i think, so getting a digi would be the way to grow, go
i'm sure theres a member here up to date on LED's
i know they are in the 3-4 grand pricebracket !!!!!!!!!!!!!

i have a link somewhere with the specs/ faqs
i'll dig it up
Joe

[Joe King Park]

i do recall Home harvest selling Digis less than a year ago which caused radio/ cordless phone interference as well as suffer fan failiure
maybe they can be found here www.hysupply.nl
the link i have is from Holland

if none of you are reading Soft Secrets, i highly reccomend you download this Canna Magazine (adobe) www.soft-secrets.nl
latest issue just released !!
its where i find links like this one www.grow-go.nl or www.pi-rack.nl
now does anyone have a freighter i could use for a year, rofl?
Joe

Oh , and heres a new image of Mylars new competition
i just ordered five metres (1.4 metre wide) for

[Joe King Park]

Lugen007 , does Grow&Go answer your question , lol ?
Joe

Glassman; here you go old chap; www.truevisionhydroponics.com

[Joe King Park]

the aerojets look sweet ! BTW

[Glass Man]

Thanks Joe,
Looks like I'll still have to save up for one. The 600 Digi Ballast is $340 + another $110 for the bulb!

I'm just a poor glassblower. I'll have to keep getting by with my $60 ballast & $10 400w bulbs for a while longer.....Hopfully the Digi's will become more affordable soon.

[Brick Top]

[QUOTE]Bricktop; thats the General hydroponics version?
very nice , and GH quality!
not sure of GH prices?


I

[Tug]

My hydro wholesaler here in Canada is a friend, and I was told (they coulda sold me thousands of dollars worth) to wait until the digital ballasts become more reliable (i need a bunch).

They didn't want me returning/replacing/complaining with the new stuff, unreliable is what I was told.

peace - tug

[Lugen007]

That's what I heard that they are not reliable....

[Joe King Park]

yes there are several on the market that do cause radio interference, and in North America these problems have been ironed out
here in UK too , only the 1000 digital ballast was recalled and is being corrected as we speak
the 400/600 models have a 2-5 year warranty / guarentee against defections

Bricktop; one day we will have self illuminating wallpaper!!!
heres your basic 32 watt set up, and slide rail
basic...
but i do have another image of a set up which replaces 2000 watts with a 88 watt tuneable set up, gotta dig deep , so i'll post later
Joe

[Brick Top]

Bricktop; one day we will have self illuminating wallpaper!!!
Joe


I don

[Mais]

I need 6 new 600 watt lights. I love the concept of the digital... BUT... reliability still seems to be an issue both with Future Bright and Lumatek.

My understanding is the Lumateks seem to burn a lot of bulbs out, in particular Eye Hortilux.

Is anyone out there using the Lumateks?

[c-ray]

there is a brand of digi ballasts made somewhere in the lower mainland (vancouver area)...word was yes they tended to burn bulbs out rather quickly

[hydrorascal]

Good data there as always Joe.

On that led lights site.. they have a breakdown on a 10.4sqft coverage setup.
Works out to be about $2700USD.

[Joe King Park]

ah , thanks HR, i try my best
i'm still digging for an old link which showed the breakdown of figures which showed that , using your price quote of 2700.00, and the savings realised , almost paid for itself in saved electricity consumption over either one year, or two , i forget
but once paid for , future crops would cost , what , maybe 10-15 bucks a crop !!
With Led , you do get what you pay for; 100% efficiency ( a conventional HID is maybe 30% efficient , the remaining being affected by wasted heat)

i'm no expert on LED's , thats for sure
but it is refreshing to know that we do have folks who know more than i on the subject

in closing, whats the problem with Vari ballasts ( apart from the price)
maybe someone could shed some light ( pardon the pun) on the subject
heres their link www.vb1000.com
Joe

[Indica Sativa]

...really the question should be gram per watt per square foot...verticle growing taught me that...

I can't wait till I hit the 2+ gram a watt, per sq ft. =]

[Brick Top]

What sort of footprint/area of light coverage can you get from a 250 watt and a 430 watt.

[Tug]

Horizontal w/reflector - 3'x3' square & 4'x4' square max, and 2 1/2'x3' & 3'x3 1/2' realistically, their respective wattages.
Vertical w/reflector - 4'x4' & 5'x5' max, and 3'x3' & 4'x4' realistically.
No reflector vertical, 35 cubic feet & 65 cubic feet max/realistically.

These figures give you very high light intensity in the space quoted, enough to grow great pot.
You can make those spaces bigger and have some of it be lower intensity areas without a problem.

peace - Gut

[Joe King Park]

aim for 55 watts per square foot
goota go
Joe

[markscastle]

Well first grow? Not at all! first indoor grow,sort of.I am on my first indoor grow but they are near 40-45 inches and still in veg. I now have clones and clones from the clones stacked up for the next two grows.100% on the clones so far! I am about to start 12/12 soon and am expecting some very tall bushy plants. I am hoping for 5-6 lbs.dry from the first indoor grow. My cousin who grows inside and outside has looked over my grow and said I`ve done well. Only said I could have used the space better and had more plants. I have 19 in 5 gal buckets he said I could support between 30 -35 in this set up.That`s what I plan on the next two grows. oh I have added some floro`s for side lights as well.

[country boy]

600 bulbs are more expensive on the other side of the pond, JKP.
add in the extra hoods and ventilation and prices even out.
1K's allow for greater light pentetration, if a bit more heat...

and I must disagree on the 55 wt's per square foot, different strains seem to respond to much greater lumens-obviously, temps must be controlled...

cb

[country boy]

Joe, while i admire your input to the site, i must disagree in the 'footprint' size you give to various lights. They might be be correct for vegging, but seem to be a bit weak for flowering...

we ain't talking about 'under story' rainforest plants here...always heard that if it'll grow corn(maize to you, across the pond), you'll get decent flower production.

We've all read the 'claims' made by vendors about their hood/reflector coverage, but the phrase 'puffery' comes to mind...

i recall a well respected member doing some 'real world' tests on various hoods and he seemed to find that white paint provided be best reflective surface...better than the aluminum reflectors that manufacturers provide...

cb

edit: this post is in reply to some charts previously posted and have since been deleted...

[Tug]

Lets lay out some boundaries here to establish a reference.

Some people use immobile lights/trays/containers and have never experienced an appreciable difference in size of plants because their growth was hampered in some respect.

So, for experienced growers, those light figures are quite accurate.
I would say that further is even possible, with a reduction in yield/potency in some cases.
Many of the headstash strains we grow are bred from strains acclimated to intense light, and thus we have strains that perform extrememly well under 'more than normal' amounts of intense light.

It's all very much strain dependant.
I have a strain (Watty Kush, an Afghan) that needs intense light to do well, grows much better than normal in trays vs. pots, and on a table under verts w/reflectors is a good yielder, but put it in a vert setup (no reflector) and in pots, and the yield goes to shit with the less light and rooting space.
The Chernobyl I used to grow would grow well under even moderate light.

peace - tug

[CottonBalls]

It has nothing to do with the lights, it has everything to do with the skill of the grower.
That much I HAVE learned.

I'm certain some of you have seen a plant look like ass and a cut of the same plant that someone made look like gods own bud (no, not godsbud the strain).

It's skill, nothing more, nothing less.

[Joe King Park]

Country Boy ; my references are actually figures compiled by Jorge Cervantes in his updated indoor horticultural bible-2005
also , a plant can only absorb a certain amount of light energy before oversaturation just make it a waste of money
i just read the stats and then retype them here
if you think my figures are misleading other members , well i can appreciate that , and just leave my post half finished
being pressed for time , n'all, maybe you can clear up this question for which there still is no definitive answer
and twenty years in BC; Corn is Corn
actually its Corn over here too
oh well
Joe

[Joe King Park]

ok , i have deleted the incorrect information i so hurriedly posted
lets have some others input
cotton balls , do enlighten me with your opinion, i'm all ears, lol
sheesh , i'm off to bed

[country boy]

I think tug raises a good point-some strains do better in higher light environments…
Seems some of the ‘old school’ stuff does just fine with, hell, I think Vic used 35/ft (on movers)…
But others seem to be able to utilize the extra lumens…


JKP-It seems I’ve offended you by questioning the footprints of various lights you listed in the now deleted post, no disrespect was intended…

Curious: is this the same ‘Jorge Cervantes’ who is/was writing a book, using OG’s Faqs and threads?

cb

[c-ray]

and then there are some strains that suck indoors under average light, but kick ass outdoors, maybe they need more uv and/or blue light?

a good rule of thumb for me is a 1000 watt can cover 4 foot square or a 5 foot diameter circle, a 600 watt can cover 3 foot square or a 4 foot diameter circle, and a 400 watt can cover 2.5 foot square or a 3 foot diameter circle...these are numbers for brand new bulbs

some strains I've seen will put out extra hairs from the tops of the bud near the end of the cycle if the get lots of light, and tend to finish better on lower light and temps, which is what happens outdoors...in the peak of summer the light is more intense and is more blue and the temps are warmer, and this shifts to a less intense light with more red and lower air temps, which naturally triggers finishing hormones

[grasshopper]

fwiw

[Elohim is plural]

...we are not mother nature, but we can try and fake it...that's the ticket...
EIP

[Joe King Park]

Elohim is plural
i agree
for example these two plants, both the same age, both the same strain!
Grape God starting to flower
Joe

P.S . appologies for early this morning, no sleep, and complications at the hospital
no faking here,lol
Joe

[Joe King Park]

i think even the strain can not help determine the end yield
for example these five Gods Grape, although healthy will not yield anywhere near that of its sister, same age Gods Grape Pheno
i figure the pheno will double the yield of a normal gods grape
Joe

[mojojojo]

i dunno i have been growing with 3 4oo watt lamps
i seem to lack in yield when i compare my grow to people with 1000 watt lamps.

youd think id havwe better coverage and less heat due to the fact that the lights are dispersed around the room,but it seems the powerfull light from a 1000 makes things grow larger.

i just got a 1000 watt mh which im running in bloom with 950 watts of hps
the 1000 watt mh puts off less heat then my 400 watt hps so i can get it closer to my canopy..i know it has less lumens tghen hps but its looking good to me while i save up for an air cooled hood.
anyopne ever flower with mh as the main light source what are your thoughts?

[Cannafornia]

air
light
nutrients
water
humidity
temperature

you need to balance all these together
all higher or all lower

before you even think about genes

fwiw



You just cannot over-emphasize what grasshopper said. Get all your ducks in a row before you shoot em. Or for vegans, get all your carrots lined up before you pull them. Either way, air circulation, light and nutrients pretty much in that order. Newbies write this stuff down!

[Cannafornia]

Mojo , did you say that your 1000 MH was cooler than the 400 hps? MH has always been the hot light for me even with a 150 they burn hot.

MH lamps WITHOUT a glass shield, just a reflector will produce more potent buds because of the UV radiation. A combination of the 1000 MH with one or more 600 - 1000 watt hps lamps is awesome. I would always recommend mixed spectrum for flowering if possible.

[mojojojo]

that really odd that you say that,
i can put my hand about 4 inches away from the 400 watt mh before i feel heat,my hps 400 is like 8 inches till i feel heat same as the 1000 watt mh.

shit my 150 hps is almost as hot as the 400 mh.
hmm :-)

[Cannafornia]

You're right dude . . . the halide I was using was one of those self-contained ones with the ballast attached to the reflector. That's why it was always so crazy hot. Doh!