Organic Hydroponic Nutrients

[Lucas]

What follows is an exploration of the ingredients in Metanaturals, Pure Blend Pro, and Flora Nova, in the context of "Organic" nutrients.

Metanaturals has a website that goes into great detail on the process by which their organic nutrients get broken down by a "bacterial field" to make the nutrients available to the plants. A lot of it is in this post by DeltaNugz:
https://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/showthread.php?t=151

here are the ingredients of metanaturals 3-3-3
"Derived from soy, bone meal, blood meal, copper sulfate, magnesium sulfate, potassium sulfate, iron sulfate, manganese sulfate, sodium molybdate, zinc sulfate, humic acids derived from kelp and decomposed plant and animal material."

I can see why it would be necessary to have a bacterial field present to break down and release the nutrients contained in Blood and Bone Meal. As to the sulfate minerals, copper, magnesium, potassium, iron, manganese, and zinc, I suppose those are considered "organic" by some rules, but that is not what I think of as organic. And I dont suppose bacteria are neded to break those minerals down any further, as they appear to be a breakdown of composted kelp, which is a very popular and powerful product, that is appearing in most hydroponic nutrients these days, including Pure Blend Pro, and FloraNova.

Here are the ingredients of Pure Blend Pro. Although it claims to be organic, Pure Blend's website does not mention any requirement for a bacterial field to be developed to complete the break down of nutrients.
"Derived From:
Fish meal, composted sea bird guano, sea kelp, spirulina, soybean protein extract, rock phosphate, potassium carbonate, magnesium carbonate, calcium carbonate, humic acid*, fulvic acid*, citric acid*, raw sugar cane*, Agrimineral 72 (silica clay extract)*, ami no acids*, B-complex vitamins*, and select botanical plant extracts*.
*Non plant food ingredients"


As a personal preference, I like the fish and guano in Pure Blend, better than the Blood and Bone meal in Metanaturals. Its debatable, but I think the fish might have grown up with less chemicals in their diet that cows.

On the other hand, Rock Phosphate, in Pure Blend, is problematic, because it contains trace amounts of Polonium 210, which I believe is responsible for lung cancer in tobacco smokers.

Now here are the ingredients listed for Flora Nova Bloom, which also does not require a bacterial field to make the nutrients available to the plants.

"Derived from: Ammonium Molybdate, Ammonium Phosphate, Calcium Nitrate, Potassim Nitrate, Potassium Phosphate, Potassium Borate, Magnesium Sulfate, Cobalt Sulfate, Copper Sulfate, Manganese Sulfate, Zinc Sulfate, Iron DPTA"

As I read the ingredients in these nutrients, I am suprised by the number of chemicals they list. I dont know the rules for defining something as "organic". But chemicals listed in all those products are not what I would have thought of as organic. To me, Organic means coming from live organisms, not refined chemicals.. but then, Im told the plants cant tell the difference between NH4 from fish, blood, or the chemical powder.

Just food for thought.
Lucas

[Lucas]

The debate on "Organics" and "Hydroponics"

There is a huge popular debate about the value of "organic" fertilizers and methods, many people would like to apply "organics" to hydroponics. Currently accepted organic fertilizer components are dependent upon organisms in the soil to convert the "organic" materials into a useable form for plants. In hydroponics we provide the minerals required for plant growth directly, completely eliminating the need for soil and soil- organisms. The result is much higher growth rates, yields and even crop quality than organic methods can achieve. This is not what some people want to hear, but it is the simple scientific truth - and practically all scientists and educators in the fields of agriculture and chemistry know it and will be the first to agree. In fact, the kinds of materials which are permitted for use under "organic" regulations are not of sufficient purity to be used for hydroponic culture. With this in mind it's important to recognize the reasons that "organically" grown produce is gaining such popularity. Consumers want to buy produce which is not tainted with hazardous chemicals or poisons. There is an increasing public demand for methods which are gentle on our delicate planet and which don't harm the soil, water or ecosystems. Hydroponic farming methods fit properly into this system of values if used appropriately. Hydroponics protects soil because it doesn't use soil. Less water is required for hydroponic culture and consequently more food can be cultivated with less water. The fertilizers we use for hydroponics are ultra-pure and leave no residue in the cultivated fruits and vegetables. Since hydroponic technologies are more efficient than soil methods, more people can be fed with less area and ecological impact.

THE ORGANIC HYDROPONIC DEBATE OPENING PANDORA'S BOX

As seen in the Growing Edge Magazine During the 1980

[GrowGreen]

I follow a simple rule when it comes to Organic / Natural / Bio.... If I can pronounce the ingredients its ok for my body or the plants.. :)

Good info as always...long live the force

:peace:
GG

[Deltanugz]

...

[GrowGreen]

http://www.omri.org/
http://www.ams.usda.gov/nop/Q&A.html
Applicability
1. Posted 6/26/03
Q: Can salt and water be certified organic under the National Organic Program?
A: No. Salt, in all of its forms, and water can not be certified as organic under the National Organic Program. Only agricultural products produced and handled in accordance with the National Organic Program may be certified as organically produced. Salts are minerals not agricultural products. Water is a chemical substance used in the production of agricultural products but is not itself an agricultural product. Section 2106(c) (7 U.S.C. 6505 (c)) of the Organic Foods Production Act of 1990, as amended, and section 205.302 of the National Organic Program require the exclusion of salt and water when calculating the percentage of organic ingredients in a multi-ingredient product. Further, National Organic Program sections 205.303(b)(1) and 205.304(b)(1) provide that

[c-ray]

check the rule for sulfates on this page:
http://www.ams.usda.gov/nop/NationalList/FinalRule.html

here's another useful link:
http://www.ams.usda.gov/nop/NOP/standards.html

[GrowGreen]

I

[mace]

Good thread Lucas!

Nice info GG, was wondering how the hell are they gonna make nutes without water... powdered salts maybe? lol

The more i read about the whole organic/bio products sold in bottles the more i think its pure marketing.

[Old Toby]

I'm pretty sure that the Humic Acid used in the ferts is also derived from ROCK not agriculture. I was talking with a friend who has his own line of Coir, Salts and Organic Nutes, during that converstation he said that's it's tough to get an OMRI appoval on anything with Humates, as the major source is Leonardite, a rock...same with the mentioned Epsom Salts, most come from caves. It IS possible to make recover them from agricultural sources, but it is EXTREMELY expensive. The cost to produce the organic nutes is about 100X that of the salt based nutes. Something silly like .30/gallon of chemical nutes and $30/gallon for the Organics.

[Deltanugz]

...

[Deltanugz]

...

[GrowGreen]

Not for profit means that they must disperse their profits.. OMRI is not a “Free” service.
Churches are No Profit as well.. :)

Pick your Devil and defend its cause..
:peace:
GG

[LordOvertoke]

On the other hand, Rock Phosphate, in Pure Blend, is problematic, because it contains trace amounts of Polonium 210, which I believe is responsible for lung cancer in tobacco smokers.

wow, that's worrisome to read as PBP is my weapon of choice.

may i ask, do you think this is also present in vapor as opposed to smoke?

LO

[c-ray]

I'd like to see the analysis of pbp where it says it contains polonium 210. I know David Malmo Levine was saying that some rock phosphate tested for radioactivity but there is more than one source of rock phosphate and painting them all with the same brush is a bit misleading.

[plantbuilder]

lucas ya got it backwards mon **** is precomposted and pbp is not
anyways good luck with your studies
peace.
pb

[c-ray]

if rock phosphate has polonium I wonder what other radioactive elements are there, without proper analysis I can only guess that rock phosphate either has polonium or not depending on where it is mined, and those sources with polonium have a potential to contain other heavy radioactive elements...I'll bet that the source that showed polonium came from a deep mine, and that rock phosphates from closer to the surface are safer

[plantbuilder]

to be brief...
all seabird guano is composted. (you can't buy it fresh lol)
derived from = ingredient.

i don't really care about mike's paper on how to use metanaturals
he's always asked us anyways...

answer this...
who is dr. toule?
who makes ****?
are the ingredients for pbp listed in the correct order?
have you ever asked treg bradley any of these questions?

gg,
usda will not certify your product flat out.
and...
(5) Magnesium sulfate - allowed with a documented soil deficiency
^ that means hydroponics.

i mean i am sure you could get a usda allowance to use the carbonates lol.

fred, barney, bam bam,
just for today i will be kind to all living beings
the name change shows great soil depth :)
keep it cool <<< very cryptic ^^^

peace all.
plantbuilder

[Elohim is plural]

...i got it all chode...
EIP

[plantbuilder]

...i got yours.
wtf i just realized that your name is the same as POM lol.
peace.
pb

1. dr toule is the guy who made the power series... elohim knows that

[jaharvester]

Metanaturals is the only hydroponic Organic nutrient that is OMRI Certified Organic.

Bio Bizz products work great around here in a Hydro situation, depending on the application.They are Omri listed.

Omri listed suppliments for hydro applications are endless....

[Elohim is plural]

...i do?..hehe...
EIP

[plantbuilder]

jah harvester that is a wonderful interjection.

2. http://www.westbridge.com/eng/organic/products.htm

[Deltanugz]

...

[plantbuilder]

wow no thanks even...

3. No. (do they have to be, no.)
4. of course i have.

...not sure why you are resorting to semantics when we have facts that can be discussed.
peace.
pb

[Deltanugz]

..

[jaharvester]

PBPRO, fOX fARM, Flora Nova,even earth Juice does not claim to be 100 percent organic, only organic based.

This is usually do to the method of derivment...

[Deltanugz]

..

[plantbuilder]

jah,
EJ grow, bloom and catalyst are certified organic nutrients.

lucas,
pbp is not a certified organic nutrient.
i would not recommended running straight **** in any recirc ebb/flow table.
are we done yet?
the way i see it this will take about a year to teach you about soil and how to best emmulate it in a hydroponic situation.
i will say high to treg for you though.

peace.
pb

[plantbuilder]

ok enough pissing.

so my nutrients have been circulating for about
19 hours...

the make up of this res is:
120 ml salts ab formula to .5 ec
80 ml ggold boost, same ec

5 gallons removed to soak some plugs etc

then added
120 ml 1-5-5
120 ml 3-3-3
120 ml earth food
10 ml 16-0-0
about 5-10 ml ph up

that takes it to 1.4 ec

add some grey powder (like of 500ml container) like pirranha and water in to 1.2 ec.

ph was about 4.8 prior to ph up and 6 after.
ph and ec are still the same
a small rio pump keeps this vat of water turning

does that help?
of course i can hook it up lucas.
plantbuilder.

[plantbuilder]

do i need to put a sock in it? lol

[Deltanugz]

...

[GrowGreen]

No offence to PBP, but I would not call product grown with this nutrient "Organic."

Then what would you call it ? Synthetic :D

Couldn

[jaharvester]

Im hearing alot of semantics.

Earth Juice base nutes may be certified organic, but 90 percent of their products are not.

PBP is not organic, and dosent claim to be, although their label has changed to DISCLUDE THE EXACT INGREDIANCE OF THEIR NEW PRODUCT, SWEET, and the new label is slightly misleading,i still think it superior to many products out there.

Has everyone ignored my tid bit on BIO BIZZ????

Any help on this Lucas would be great.

I have to agree with Lucas that this is an information websight for the benn of all of us. If you want to just blurb out condisending one liners, i can think of a few sites that would love to have you....

Just an opinion....

Good Grow!

[knna]

Hi all

There is a new hidro organic fertilizer of GH, called BioSevia.

I open a thread about in Soil&Organics. I only know what GH said in its web. Nothing about composition, origin... and very little about ph range.

I would like to try it, but after read the Lucas excelent initial post, i prefer to take more info first, because currently i havent problems using mineral fertilizers. Only trying to improve taste.

Knna