gosh darn it I must be retarted or something... [Archive]

Sicarii

01-29-2010, 02:12 PM

Well folks, I did it again. I gone done and f-ed something up again :( I don't know how much my plants like being on my learning curb ;)
I'll start off with hydrorascal's guide to posting problems.

1. Type of grow, hydro or soil
Soil
5 parts Canadian Spaghnam Peat or Coir or Pro-Moss
3 parts perlite
2 parts wormcastings or mushroom compost or home made compost
powder lime @ 2 tablespoons per gallon

2. Type and ratio of nutes or fertz
1 tablespoon blood meal per gallon or 1/2 cup per cubic foot of soil mix
2 tablespoons bone meal per gallon or 1 cup per cubic foot of soil mix
1-tablespoon kelp meal per gallon or 1/2 cup per cubic foot of soil mix
1 tablespoon Jersey Greensand per gallon or 1/2 cup per cubic foot of soil mix
3. Size and location of bulb with timer settings.
220(ish)W of CFL lighting on 18/6
4. Age and strain of the problem plants
the large plant is just shy of 2 months old and the little babies are about 2-3 weeks
5. Temperatures of nutes, soil, air.
Air temp: 80-87 day / 60-68 night
no soil thermometer :(

Ok, this all being said, let me roll the picture reel!
2104421045
2104621047
2104821049

Thanks for looking

peace and love
sicarii

Sicarii

01-29-2010, 02:48 PM

i was reading the plant abuse chart from Nietzsche. I believe my answer is that my water is too hard. I think I have the same Mg deficiency as before. I have been using a foliar feed of 1/4 tsp epsom salts to try to rectify the issue but...

[quote]Notice how in figure 16 and 17 the leaves curl upwards like they're praying? They're praying for Mg! The tips may also twist.
This can be quickly resolved by watering with 1 tablespoon Epsom salts/gallon of water. Until you can correct nutrient lockout, try foliar feeding. That way the plants get all the nitrogen and Mg they need. The plants can be foliar feed at

hypnotoad

01-29-2010, 03:46 PM

Yes but you could also just get a garden gro filter. these units just remove the chlorine without removing all the minerals which you do want to keep. I know you say you have hard water, but these units were also made to be used outside. Bottom line, one new grower to another: I have a mineral count of 430ppm and a natural PH of 7.8. Until recently I did not even PH balance my water (I do now). the plants are all looking great.

Also, before you buy anything, try just using some store bought spring water for a bit. That way, you KNOW your water source is good. If that doesn't change. Go to a simple and cheap one part fertilizer like ionic, earth grow, advanced if you have lots of money, or even BMO. BMO's entire line will run you 35 with shipping. Then you will know your nutes are good, and at the right amounts.

Also, this is just me, but if I were in your shoes, I'd be thinking that I overfed them...a lot. I don't think you have any deficiencies, I think you may have nute burn. I'd get a second opinion, but maybe flush the hell out of all your plants???

Sorry to see your babies having a hard time. Best of luck man, and remember, all my advice is best taken in small doses as it may contain Bullshit which has been known to cause cancer.

Peace,
HT

Sicarii

01-29-2010, 05:19 PM

I thought that at first but then i looked at pics of nute burn here (http://www.ganjaguerrilla.net/)and here (http://www.gardenscure.com/420/latest-growfaq-entries/89618-plant-abuse-chart-photos-nietzsche.html). I'm not saying you're wrong, I just think I have a different problem. You could be right and I may be about to nuke my second grow...
I was under the impression that excessive Ca floating around in the water will bond to the free Mg and become useless to the plants..

I was using bottled spring water in the beginning and then switched to Tap. I think switching back to bottled might be my cheapest/smartest solution..I'll pick up a case of RO water and stash it in my closet :)

thanks for looking
peace sicarii

hypnotoad

01-29-2010, 05:49 PM

I totally agree. One thing that would help a lot is to eventually invest in a good meter. Also, my main reason for thinking you don't have a mag deficiency was for two reasons:

1. You used garden lime which is high in Cal/Mag.
2. Your plants are still small like mine, how much food could they need at this point?

Regardless, I am too new to be 100% on anything growing related. Hopefully, one of the old school growers will lend a hand, and set us both straight as to what's actually happening to your grow.

Man, sorry to see your crop taking a dive, but at least it doesn't look too late. Plants in worse shape have been brought back to life. My only concern now would be the time lost for recovery, and stunted growth? Again that is purely speculative.

Good Luck,
HT

Sicarii

01-29-2010, 05:55 PM

Time lost is not as important as lessons learned. I think they will make it. I have done worse and still gotten relatively good buds(good to someone on the East Coast;)).

I just took a drug test for a job, so i should have a meter soon and not have to deal with the guess and check

peace and love
sicarii

Loki

01-29-2010, 08:25 PM

That could be a lot of different problems, but I'd guess it's a nitrogen toxicity. Bloodmeal is very soluble, and can cause burning just about as easily as nitrates. If so, a good flushing will help.

Parabola

01-30-2010, 02:26 AM

Not retarded just a newb. give yourself a break first off and relax. What you are attempting to do with an organic soil mix is near the upper end of the difficulty spectrum for indoor gardening. I would suggest starting over with soil less medium like coco and a good hydro organic nutrient. toss your soil mix into your outdoor garden. get some decent cuts or good beans and get it all right from the beginning. you might think it would be a setback but you will be further ahead in the end. It is much more forgiving and easy to correct when you proceed as I mentioned. yes, you might be able to put your current grow right but it will be slow and painfull for those poor plants. remember that most soil mixes assume a grow under strong h.i.d. lights so if you are providing less light, reduce the fert accordingly.

Loki

01-30-2010, 05:52 AM

Those plants are small enough that you might be able to dig them out, rinse off the roots and replant in a milder mix. But you'd be better off starting with fresh heathy clones, if you can.

Sicarii

01-30-2010, 06:20 AM

Thanks for your advice guys. I'm not that stressed out about it because I know every mistake I make and correct in this grow will equate to many more successful grows in the future.

Parabola, as painful as I know it will be, I think you have the best advice for me. I believe I have learned a few things about this box and its limitations/advantages. I think next time I will attempt something more resembling a SOG as opposed to a SCROG. I recently received some quality beans. Clones are totally unavailable to me as I know of no other grower in my area.

should pure coco work for a medium or does it require anything?
and could you suggest a good line of nutrients?

Thanks for taking the time to help me out guys
peace and Jah love
sicarii

Parabola

01-30-2010, 01:42 PM

i have found pure coco works well. you can put a little lime, perlite, and worm castings but it is not necessary as coco is really similar to hydro in being a very inert, non reactive medium that is hard to overwater. I like pure blend pro nutes, but there are others that will work just as well. the type of coco can make a difference.. So far the bcuzz brand of coco has been very good.

Sicarii

01-30-2010, 04:04 PM

Ok cool! I spent some time looking last night at different ways to grow in coco. One way that stuck in my head was a thing called a 'hempy bucket'. The grower used a bucket with no drainage and put a hole 2 inches from the bottom. filled up to the hole w/ perlite and then to the top w/ coco. the idea was that the 2" layer of perlite below the drainhole acted as a mini rez for the plants and also allowed the coco to drain.

I thought that if I could scale his bucket to fit in my cab it would be a pretty good solution. My flat tupperware tray of soil is soo shallow that it gets bonne dry pretty fast.

Thanks again for all the input and advice
peace
sicarii

hypnotoad

01-30-2010, 10:10 PM

For nutes, and simplicity, Grow Micro Bloom - Lucas Formula. That's 3 bottles made by several hydro companies that usually run about $45 all said and done. Hempy Buckets are a very popular way to grow. One particular method that has literally exploded at the THC farm is the RDWC buckets that one grower uses to grow 4lbs a plant! Also, since you're doing a cab grow, you can get away with the yeast, water, sugar in a gallon jug trick to enhance your Co2 levels. Good luck!

HT

Parabola

01-30-2010, 11:02 PM

hempy buckets rely on a deep bucket to work properly. I would be concerned about drowning the roots with a shallow container. just use coco and water as soon as the surface looks a little dry, and make sure it drains well. if you add a bit of perlite to the coco you can ensure it doesn't hold too much water. You had mentioned something about using liquid karma earlier. if you can get LK then pure blend pro nutes should be at the same store as they are from the same company. cal mag and liquid karma are the only other additives I use.

Sicarii

01-31-2010, 12:46 AM

parabola, my plan was to ditch the tray and get individual planters measuring 5cm x 7cm x 10cm (lwh). That way I could fit quite a few plants inside my floorplan which is 35cm x 37cm. i was hypothosyzing that a small container would be easy to handle as well as aid in keeping the plants small and managable using PW style pruning. Its gonna take a little bit to get all the supplies because garden stores are seasonal here but i will look into the nutes you speak of.

HT, i will be taking the cab offline while preparing for the coco grow. I hope to be able to seal (or at least partially seal) the cab up. when I do this I will set up the soda bottle CO2 as i think that is awesome to.

peace
sicarii

Parabola

01-31-2010, 02:04 AM

a little over one square foot? If you are going from seed those poor seeds will be soo cramped in there. imagine being forced to go from baby stage to full sexual maturity in less than a fraction of the natural time and space. do you have a separate area for veg/mother? getting a healthy female plant might be your first goal, then flower out cuts from her as soon as they root. seeds are going to be a tough go.

Sicarii

01-31-2010, 02:15 AM

i have an area where I can root a cutting but i dont have a place to hold a mother plant.
i will try to come up with a mother sized chamber, what do you think would be the minimum size for a mother? And how much light do they need? would a single 23w cfl be enough to sustain her?

peace
sicarii

greenfingers

01-31-2010, 04:25 PM

more light and a bigger space would be a good place to start, i realize you can do a whole grow with cfl's, but i use 400 watts of cfl's in a homemade hood to start my seeds and thats about it, they really stretch if i leave them under it too long. i run a cabinet 2'x4'x8' closet type, with a 400 watt hps light store bought soil with some compost and perlite for drainage, well water and store bought ferts. works great for personal size grow and you can run almost any strain. if you can't use a closet go get one from one of the marts out there. looks like you need more height, even cfl's will burn or dry the leaves if its too close. i learned this with my own plants a few years ago when i first tried cfl's to start my seeds before i harvesed the current grow. peace gf.

Sicarii

02-01-2010, 12:41 AM

So perhaps what I should do is build a flower box and use this cab for moms and clones...

peace
sicarii

Parabola

02-01-2010, 01:57 AM

:nod:

Sicarii

02-01-2010, 02:41 AM

ok. space will still be tight but I`m thinking a 2`x1.5` x 3` (lwh) box with 2 150w HPS. this one will have more thought put into it. So before i start screwing and glueing, im gonna have to ask for advice.

first question: will thise dimentions work?

second question: will 300w of HPS be enough to support plants up to 2.5 feet tall?

third question: would 3X 150W HPS be possible in this size cab? (just remembered i have 3..)

and....if number 3 is a yes..that brings me to question four: if i hav the 3 lights would i be better off running 2x HPS and one CMH? or should I go hps all the way?

thanks again parabola and thanks greenfingers for making me think about new construction

peace
sicarii

Sicarii

02-01-2010, 09:30 PM

ok so this is a basic idea just so I can begin designing.

21082

this is by no means a finished product ;)

I figure that this is a bare bones 450w cabinet comprised of 3 150w HPS. What I would like to know is what should I do with it? I dont know what would be the best way to cool this cab.

I was thinking that I could go really low budget and just use black and white poly for walls but I dont know how to make a lightproof vent in plastic sheeting....
Plywood is also an option for walls and lends itself to structure but adds to cost and labor.

I would really appreciate any advice and tips.

peace and thanks
sicarii

Parabola

02-02-2010, 12:05 AM

use the white and black poly, just affix the fan to one of the structural beams and tape around the seal. you will also want a small fan inside the box blowing over the tops of the plants. as long as the room the box is in is not brightly lit it should stay dark inside when you want it to. an intake made of black flexible pipe at (at least) a 90* bend will allow airflow without allowing light in

hypnotoad

02-02-2010, 01:11 AM

3 150's ??? You can get away with a 400 if it's air cooled. That, by far, seems a better option than 3 ballasts to deal with, and cheaper too. Also, with the savings you can buy 1 HPS, 1 CMH, and 1 400W ballast all for under 200 (unless you get the Hortilux HPS).

The reason I suggest this is because of that Light/inverse law stuff. With an air cooled hood, you can get within 12" of your tops and have almost the same lumens/sq ft as a 1000.

Also, that is a short cab, so may I recommend this hydroponic grow tray with offset resivoire? I designed this awhile back in anticipation of converting a HON file cabinet into a dual chamber bloombox.

http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=76&pictureid=608&thumb=1 (http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/picture.php?albumid=76&pictureid=608)

I know I am a new grower, but I seriously believe that air cooling your light right off the bat will save you many problems. additionally a couple of computer fans for an intake set on the side at a level where the top of the canopy is anticipated, and a couple of computer fans higher up on the side for heat escape coupled with the air cooled light should (or hopefully).

Additionally, is it possible to raise the box 1ft? I think that an extra foot could change your cab from being cramped to comfortable.

Just my thoughts on how I would help in your situation. Also glad to see another sketchup user around. I love that program.

And lastly, regardless of how its built, good luck. Can't wait to see it all put together.

Peace,
HT

Sicarii

02-02-2010, 03:59 PM

HT, the 3 150's are what I have. You're right, a 400w would be ideal but funds wont allow. I have lots of wood available to me and scrap and such but probably only like 100 bucks to throw at this. I think I can design a hood that would be air cooled and hold all 3 lights, I have aluminum and a riviter so I can work out a design for that.

Once I have a flowering chamber producing more weed than I can smoke however, upgrades become possible.

Therefore, I think the trick will be to design a system that can be kinda plug and play. I was thinking of a design for a hood that could hold the 3 150w bulbs and also be suitable for a single 400w bulb. Maybe a thicker frame would allow me to wrap the box with poly now and later throw on plywood walls to make it more secure. That kind of stuff.

I like your ideas tho so keep them coming, I just have to keep my sights in the here and now so that i can get a system together that works now and then doesn't have to be re-invented when I have more money to throw at it.

peace and thanks for lookin'
sicarii

Sicarii

02-02-2010, 04:52 PM

here is the hood i was talking about. it can hold three or 1 light and it can be sealed or not (it is shown unsealed so this cab would need a filter)
21083

21084

let me know what you think

peace sicarii

c-ray

02-02-2010, 08:48 PM

I was also going to say 1 light is better, until I read your message

the general rule of thumb is brighter lights can throw their light further, a 150w may only give good buds at the very top of the canopy (roughly within 1 foot of the bulb) so when you get into flowering with those lights you will want to trim away all the underbrush and focus the plant on the tops

Sicarii

02-02-2010, 09:15 PM

What I was hoping was that because I had a more evenly distributed heat source that I may be able to put the lights a bit closer. as soon as were able to pull a harvest however, I would pop a 400w in there and maybe use the 150's to hold a CMH or 2..

Big question holding things up now is height. HT mentioned that adding a foot to my height would be nice. I suppose that would probably be for the best because I could just hang the 150's lower if i had to and then I would have the space to use a larger light.

I really appreciate all the input. things are starting to come together design wise and soon I hope to start on the hood and make sure I can make it rigid enough. The frame is going to be pretty strightforward. I found plywood sheeting in the shed so I think I will hang BW poly and then screw 1/4" plywood over top for structure and then I can toss a lock on it. that way its light tight and reflective. And i can just pull the plywood off and throw on mylar when I 'm not a bum :teeth:

Thanks again for looking and all the advice
peace sicarii

c-ray

02-02-2010, 10:12 PM

yes, get those lights as close as possible

disciple

02-02-2010, 10:39 PM

my tests with a new 250W HPS lamp and a lumatek ballast had

3,000 foot candles @ 10"
10,000 fc @ 6.5"

*measured directly from the center of the arc tube. No reflector used.
*assuming a foot candle approximates a lumen (?) assuming 10,000 lux is basically equivalent to 1,000 lumens (?)

a new bulb should get brighter after a bit of use (?)
3,000 seems to be a good minimum for ok end results
adjust accordingly for a 150W

small lights seem to work ok in a super high density sea of green where plants stay short. can't seem to penetrate down very far into a big plant.

Sicarii

02-03-2010, 05:28 AM

disciple, thanks I appreciate the data. I will use it when I am gowing

peace sicarii

disciple

02-03-2010, 12:53 PM

the lucas formula is not 3 bottles (grow-micro-bloom)

it is General Hydroponics FloraMicro and FloraBloom only

the mix is 0-8-16 ml/gallon. "0" means no FloraGrow. use for both veg and flower.

it works extremely well. read Lucas's posts on this site.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lucas had a mentor named pH.

pH would run a scrog grow under fluorescent lighting and achieve acceptable results. he ran flood and drain hydro systems.

possibly the faster growth rate (diminished impact from wet/dry cycles in flood and drain) allowed him to flower using fluorescent lighting.

Soil-less mixes have a longer wet dry cycle... roots have less access to dissolved oxygen... most growers (not all) need more light to drive the plants when flowering in soil-less than fluorescents (CFL too) put out.

pH's long tubes were always within 1/2 inch of the top of the buds because the intensity of fluorescent light falls off rapidly. the main reason scrog was used was to help all bud sites be equidistant from the tubes.

Scrog also helps produce satisfactory yields with low plant count.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

125/200W CFL suck for flowering. i tested them in the hydro shop with my meter. move 1.5 inches away from them and you have less than 2,500 lumens. less than 7,000 lumens touching the bulb. i have access to 5 brand new one's in my buddy's storage. there they shall remain.

if a reader of this post has had success with these lights, please post your pics. <i replaced (5) 200W CFL's with a single 400W HPS>

vegging mom plants seem to grow ok under a combination of 24W T5 tubes and 42W CFL bulbs. I have a shelf system to keep plants very close to the lights as they get taller.

when i veg cuttings for flowering under HID light (Metal Halide) the growth is faster and I notice way more nodes form in a given period of time. if buds begin development at nodes, in theory a plant vegged under HID lighting might yield more than a similar plant grown out under fluorescents.

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your temp is high at 85ish. your 2 week old plants look like they are too dry in the upper part of the plant. Water some more and drop the temps ?

maybe your mix dries out quickly and the concentration of nutrients climbs high and the leaf burn/nitrogen deficiency occurs ?

Sicarii

02-03-2010, 02:56 PM

your temp is high at 85ish. your 2 week old plants look like they are too dry in the upper part of the plant. Water some more and drop the temps ?

maybe your mix dries out quickly and the concentration of nutrients climbs high and the leaf burn/nitrogen deficiency occurs ?

I bet your right. These babies are no more however. When this cab gets used again, It will only have the lighting necessary to sustain moms and root clones so the temps will be much lower.

thanks again
peace sicarii

hypnotoad

02-03-2010, 09:21 PM

True, I am not saying that the 3 part grow micro bloom is the lucas formula. I should have clarified:

Simplify your nutrients. Use a simple 3 part grow micro bloom. There are ratios or feeding schedules that have been created by other growers that have converted the grow micro bloom formulas from GH, Advanced, etc, to mimic the lucas formula for plant feeding. Use one of them as they have been repeatedly proven to work.

HT

disciple

02-04-2010, 03:11 AM

There are ratios or feeding schedules that have been created by other growers that have converted the grow micro bloom formulas from GH, Advanced, etc, to mimic the lucas formula for plant feeding. Use one of them as they have been repeatedly proven to work.

HT

Have you grown with other recipes? If the benefits of the Lucas Formula are desired, why not just use it as Lucas intended until it becomes the limiting factor in the garden?

I believe Lucas' goal was to provide a very adequate simple feeding regime that would work well for a broad range of growers. In my experience, if followed exactly as laid out, a grower can produce a good yield that smokes and tastes clean.

There are specific reasons General Hydroponics Flora was used. (The way the nitrogen is included, the availability of calcium and magnesium, stability in solution etc) Other products have unique attributes which suit other mixtures.

Light, air, water/nutrients in that order. Lucas' work allowed me to address the (2) more important factors first and then focus on managing the wet/dry cycle. I never worried about deficiencies and did not experience noticeable nute burn. It worked for me in flood/drain hydroton, flood/drain rockwool blocks, straight perlite and pots of soilless mix.

Growers should adopt more comprehensive feeding regimes if/when they have specific reasons to do so. Most members of this site are likely way beyond the Lucas Formula in terms of the complexity of their nutrients.

hypnotoad

02-04-2010, 04:19 PM

This All true, I am just suggesting a starting point for new growers like myself. I have been learning quickly that keeping things simple until you are more experienced seems to be the best practice to avoid unnecessary problems.

I've learned that it's easy to get caught up in the little details of your grow, and overlook the basics.

My point, use the KISS method when starting out.

HT

Sicarii

02-04-2010, 09:43 PM

I came up with a net design for the air cooled hood. I think it could be fabricated from a single piece of sheet metal/aluminum. My plan is to rivet it together unless I find something ferrous then I could just weld it with a torch.
21096

I think it should be pretty straightforward to construct but if anybody has any tips I wold welcome them as always

thanks for looking
peace sicarii

disciple

02-05-2010, 01:08 AM

I would vote for the Lucas formula being the best starting point for any new grower. Purely based on my experience with it.

Sicarii, look at adjustawings.com and copy that instead. No welding. UNREAL light coverage. Purely based on my of use them.

The surface could be painted flat white instead if being metallic.

Bell lighting is good (LR series) but not parabolic. The double parabolic shape of the product I reccomend spreads light out from low wattage bulbs very well.

hypnotoad

02-05-2010, 01:28 AM

adjust a wings i hear are excellent but I would also recommend a cool tube if you go that route for a cab. Or at least have really good air flow which is easy for a small cab.

You can also buy some titanium dioxide powder cheap on ebay. Put that in your flat white paint to increase the reflectivity.

HT

Sicarii

02-05-2010, 01:37 AM

If i can figure out a way to incorporate the double parabolic reflector design into my hood I will. thanks for the idea

peace sicarii

Sicarii

02-05-2010, 01:40 AM

thats a cool idea HT! but why not just use high gloss paint? or both even :teeth: I still want the hood air cooled but I think a parabolic reflector wouldn't be impossible. ill post a design later tonight or tomorrow if i can figure it out.

thanks of all the quick replies
peace sicarii

disciple

02-05-2010, 03:41 AM

Super cool idea on the titanium Toad!!!!

Cool tubes cut light way down, at least in my tests with my meter. Strange because it's glass (?)

I park 400w hps over 2x4 tables in cabinets. Heat is NEVER an issue, probably because I have adequate ventilation and circulation. Metal halide seems to run hotter and is ok except right in the middle of summer.

600 and 1k would need cool tubes in closed cabinets. 2 400w work better for cabinets than 1 600w if you are going for full canopy.

I am also running 600w 400w 600w (hps, mh, hps) stacked in a vertical array and inside a 4x4x7 tent. No cool tubes and temps are acceptable.

Monseigneur Stroganoff

02-05-2010, 01:00 PM

You can also buy some titanium dioxide powder cheap on ebay. Put that in your flat white paint to increase the reflectivity.

HT
great tip

just go to the local paint shop and tell them to mix a strong titanium dioxide mix for you, thats what i did

Sicarii

02-06-2010, 02:30 AM

so i was thinking about the adjust-a-wing and i`m not sure its what i want. the design seems to spread light very well but with my little 150`s that will kill my light penetration. i was thinking of an array of parabolas that are narrower and overlap slightly. with the lamps as the foci of the parabolas, i should be able to get better penetration per bulb and having 3 bulbs will give me the coverage i need....i think.
i`ll post a picture of my idea when i can

peace sicarii

hypnotoad

02-06-2010, 04:58 AM

That sounds a bit overcomplicated. If your stuck with the 3 150's, just make one good reflector. Also, the reflector may be reusable when you upgrade one day to a 400w. Just my thoughts. I can't stress the KISS method enough as a fellow new grower.

BTW, I'm not out to shoot your ideas down, but if I can save you money and unnecessary work, I will.

Peace,
HT

disciple

02-07-2010, 12:07 AM

so i was thinking about the adjust-a-wing and i`m not sure its what i want. the design seems to spread light very well but with my little 150`s that will kill my light penetration.
peace sicarii

uh... with a horizontally oriented bulb over your garden, the part of the light facing your plants is responsible for most of the canopy penetration.

Reflectors are used to capture some of the light coming off the rest of the bulb (the backside). Reflectors don't amplify the light, only focus and/or concentrate it.

While a good shade will get a bit more light into the canopy right below it, it's not like if you have 4" of penetration with a naked 150W, that you can add some kind of reflector and get adequate light 10" down. (in a realistic gardening sense, physics experiments aside)

Canopy penetration shouldn't even be mentioned in conversation about 150W lights because they don't have the punch.

You have (3) options with 3x150W:

1. hang 3 bulbs vertically around a single plant and try and keep the plant shorter... or prune so you keep all viable bud-sites in the light.

2. Use SCROG or SOG in a flat garden so each budsite is in adequate light and nothing is going on under the canopy. The canopy in a 150W SOG should be less than 6" thick or go SCROG.

3. build 3 individual vertical gardens with a 150W hanging in the center of each (no reflector) or build one larger vertical garden and hang 3 150W in a vertical array.

sounds like you'll be leaning towards #2 in which case a double parabolic shape will help you. You plan for the weak penetration of 150W bulbs by having a shallow canopy or bud sites exposed by a screen. The parabolic shape will concentrate reflected light to the outer edges of the footprint, an area where you'd otherwise have nothing.

Putting 3 bulbs together in one reflector (that would supposedly also work for a single 400w) is just loony. You may as well flower with CFL.

realize my advice is based on things I've actually done. If I haven't done it, I don't talk about it.

I don't understand the advice to "keep it simple". You are trying to replicate nature in a shoe box substituting a flash light for the sun. What you are trying to do (both of you) is complicated.

Simple is a 1000W light in any reflector over 8 clones in hand-watered 2 gallon pots of mix. all in a big open room.

i`ll post a picture of my idea when i can

better yet, post a pic of your grow when its up and running

the attached picture was taken Thurs and shows an acceptable 400W SOG. Half has not been thinned/pruned for comparison. 4" rockwool. 39 plants. Just under 2 weeks in of 12|12, flipped when the smallest plant (not the 4 runts on the right) was 10". Heavy production indica.

Sicarii

02-07-2010, 01:59 AM

uh... with a horizontally oriented bulb over your garden, the part of the light facing your plants is responsible for most of the canopy penetration.

Reflectors are used to capture some of the light coming off the rest of the bulb (the backside). Reflectors don't amplify the light, only focus and/or concentrate it.

While a good shade will get a bit more light into the canopy right below it, it's not like if you have 4" of penetration with a naked 150W, that you can add some kind of reflector and get adequate light 10" down. (in a realistic gardening sense, physics experiments aside)

I understand that I won't get more light by putting a reflector on my bulb. What I was thinking was that with 3 lights I could use 3 real parabolas as focusers instead of the adjust-a-wing as a diffuser. I don't think that I will be pursuing that idea tho..

2. Use SCROG or SOG in a flat garden so each budsite is in adequate light and nothing is going on under the canopy. The canopy in a 150W SOG should be less than 6" thick or go SCROG.

sounds like you'll be leaning towards #2 in which case a double parabolic shape will help you. You plan for the weak penetration of 150W bulbs by having a shallow canopy or bud sites exposed by a screen. The parabolic shape will concentrate reflected light to the outer edges of the footprint, an area where you'd otherwise have nothing.
do you mean under 1 light in this example or under all 3 150's?

Putting 3 bulbs together in one reflector (that would supposedly also work for a single 400w) is just loony. You may as well flower with CFL.
why? Is there a reason beyond common convention that makes you say that? I am rather inexperienced with growing but I don't understand how 450w of HPS, even in the form of 3 150's in one hood, could possibly be as insufficient as CFL... I'm not trying to be confrontational, I just want to understand how you learned that.

I don't understand the advice to "keep it simple". You are trying to replicate nature in a shoe box substituting a flash light for the sun. What you are trying to do (both of you) is complicated.I think HT means "don't get stoned and come up with something that is too complex to execute without a machine shop" :teeth:

thanks for taking the time to respond
peace sicarii

Sicarii

02-07-2010, 06:38 AM

so one question is all that stands in my way right now. how big should my intake be? and how powerful/large should my exhaust be? The cab will be 2'x1.5'x4' (lwh) and will always be running about 400w of lights with the ballasts on the outside.

ok so two questions...my bad ;)

peace and thanks
sicarii

disciple

02-07-2010, 10:56 AM

Best answers come from building out your ideas and getting a light meter.

While you can't qualify the validity of my info without actually doing it, hopefully it provides value as you think through your plans.

Response:

I mean a SOG or SCROG under each light. If each 150W adequately lights a 1.5 ft. x 1.5 ft. area... then three 1.5 ft. square scrogs or sogs.

If you have the space to locate them in the same cabinet, you should be able to get better light on the canopy as a whole.

Your multiple parabola design for 3 bulbs (like "UUU" but flipped over) was fine. I have got better coverage by placing the adjust-a-wings end to end so the bulb tips face each other in multi-light situations.

With side-by-side, you want the foot print from one light/shade to extend as far out laterally from the bulb as possible and then you want the next light/shade foot print to start. You may as well have a wall covered in mylar at this point as if you have no overlap, you gain nothing in efficiency from the fixtures being side-by-side. The double parabolic shape does a good job extending light out laterally but because of the shape of HPS bulbs, cannot do much from the tip of the bulb out or from the mogul back.

If you orient the fixtures either with moguls back to back and/or the bulbs tip to tip, you get some overlap in that part of the foot print and thus an increase in efficiency. More light on the plants for same amount of electricity consumed.

--> search for keeftrees/agent-smith. might be on this site... can't remember. He built a "grow tunnel" with back to back/tip to tip 400W. A similiar (but smaller) design for your 150W's is the exact way to get the most out of them. plus you can still get your handyman on.

Is that fairly clear? The shade takes care of lateral light (with a mylar covered wall/cabinet side very close at hand) and the slight overlap caused by the lights being tip to tip enhances the foot print a bit.

When you get your hands on a meter, you will find almost no light comes out of the tip of the bulb... even tho its bright.

Another suggestion appeared to be placing the 3 bulbs together in a cluster under one hood.

My skepticism has nothing to do with common convention or insufficient light. You will obviously grow a plant with that fixture. The issue is why and how it would be done.

If the bulbs hang vertically in a fixture, well, there is no point in even talking about that.

So how do 3 bulbs get oriented horizontally in one fixture? 3 in a straight row? in a pyramid shape with 2 lower and 1 higher or 1 down and 2 up?

If they are in a straight row, the bottom half of all bulbs face plant surfaces. 1/4 of the top of the 2 end bulbs is available to be reflected back onto plant surfaces. the rest is reflected back onto another light bulb.

In a pyramid/inverted pyramid stack, most of the direct light from either the top single bulb (pyramid) or top 2 bulbs (inverted pyramid) lights up another bulb rather than plant surfaces. And very little reflected light (always way less intense than direct light) makes it onto a plant surface.

This is one of the big problems with CFLs. Electricity is consumed to output light, but because the tube is twisted or spiraled, the light from the bulb (tube) shines on another part of the bulb. Not a big deal for reading or lighting a room.... but an obvious issue for indoor gardening.

Yeah, 450W of HPS is going to convert more electricity to light. The CFL (or any florescent) will convert less to light and more electricity to heat.

Those 3x150W in the right hands might out yield a single 400W. Maybe.

Budget considerations aside, the smallest Vortex inline I can buy is 175 CFM (4"). You can put a 6" carbon filter (with a reducer) and the fan will draw the air out through the scrubber. No smell.

The 175 is way overkill for your space, but considering the other options in that size you kind of want to go that route. My intakes come through the floor from right outside. You can draw ambient air from the room if outside ventilation is not an option. Try to ensure your exhaust goes outside. The 175 CFM can push air a long way through a dryer hose to route it (and the humidity !!!!) out.

You can find many options that cost less than vortex fans, but nothing will work as well or be as quiet. Rumpleforeskin (mentioned in another post) has a tutorial on using computer fans for intake and exhaust. At least find and read through his work if you don't want to drop the money on a vortex.

With lots of wattage in a small space, you want a hurricane in there. Plus you get gas exchange, less rot and mildew etc.

For intake, passive will likely suffice. If need be, add a "computer fan" from your local grow shop.

Sicarii

02-07-2010, 04:14 PM

I mean a SOG or SCROG under each light. If each 150W adequately lights a 1.5 ft. x 1.5 ft. area... then three 1.5 ft. square scrogs or sogs.

If you have the space to locate them in the same cabinet, you should be able to get better light on the canopy as a whole.

If you orient the fixtures either with moguls back to back and/or the bulbs tip to tip, you get some overlap in that part of the foot print and thus an increase in efficiency. More light on the plants for same amount of electricity consumed.

OK cool, that's what I thought you meant but i just wanted to clarify. in my circumstances it may be more prudent to use just 2 of the 150's for space reasons. I have 4 square feet and each 150 will do 2.25 square feet so 2 should be sufficient for an area 2'x1.5' right?

Your multiple parabola design for 3 bulbs (like "UUU" but flipped over) was fine. I have got better coverage by placing the adjust-a-wings end to end so the bulb tips face each other in multi-light situations.

--> search for keeftrees/agent-smith. might be on this site... can't remember. He built a "grow tunnel" with back to back/tip to tip 400W. A similiar (but smaller) design for your 150W's is the exact way to get the most out of them. plus you can still get your handyman on.I looked and couldn't find the member keeftrees but i found the grow tunnel thread posted by Agent-Smith, it was a good read thanks :). I think i get what you're saying. If i took a piece of sheet aluminum, I could bend it into a longer version of the adjust-a-wing that could hold 2 lights with tips facing each other. Sound about right?

Budget considerations aside, the smallest Vortex inline I can buy is 175 CFM (4"). You can put a 6" carbon filter (with a reducer) and the fan will draw the air out through the scrubber. No smell.

The 175 is way overkill for your space, but considering the other options in that size you kind of want to go that route. My intakes come through the floor from right outside. You can draw ambient air from the room if outside ventilation is not an option. Try to ensure your exhaust goes outside. The 175 CFM can push air a long way through a dryer hose to route it (and the humidity !!!!) out.

With lots of wattage in a small space, you want a hurricane in there. Plus you get gas exchange, less rot and mildew etc.ok. the vortex is a bit pricey but it may be the only thing I have to buy besides ducting and BW poly/mylar. It is worth it to get the airflow. I dislike the computer fans because they tend to be very noisy to get the job done, but the sound ratings on the vortex is like 20 dB lower than my fan...so sound shouldn't be an issue.

thanks again for the advice.
peace
sicarii

disciple

02-07-2010, 08:21 PM

OK cool, that's what I thought you meant but i just wanted to clarify. in my circumstances it may be more prudent to use just 2 of the 150's for space reasons. I have 4 square feet and each 150 will do 2.25 square feet so 2 should be sufficient for an area 2'x1.5' right?
sicarii

:)

Yeah... you would be so much better off if you could test those lights with a meter and the reflector you are going to use. Of course it hasn't been built yet tho :)

A lot of growers go right for the 600W and 1K as they are so widely used that most of the parameters are known.

1.5 x 1.5 is a great starting point because it is likely that you will have good coverage in that area. Please try and keep your canopy full and/or work towards scrogging.

You could copy Agent-smith's tunnel. Unless you desire to work with metal.

Good call on the Vortex.

Sicarii

02-07-2010, 08:40 PM

that's right his was mylar glued onto thin plywood right? that would be easier than bending sheet metal but i think the sheet metal one would be easier to hang and such.

thanks for the help
peace sicarii

c-ray

02-07-2010, 08:53 PM

if you can find a decent print shop, the kind that prints magazines, posters, books, etc., they use thin aluminum sheets as 'plates' in the printing process and invariably they end up throwing them away so if one asks they may get some for free
they are a good size for reflectors and thin enough so that they are easy enough to work with

Sicarii

02-07-2010, 09:08 PM

ooh! printing is the closest thing to industry we have around here :teeth:

that's a super cool idea C! I'll go down there on my way to pick the wife up from work.
thanks man!
peace sicarii

disciple

02-07-2010, 10:30 PM

Very cool idea.

One challenge with Mylar is it looks shiny when you put it up but any contact seems to dull it. And if you happen to spray it... And/or when resin gets on it. I would have been better off leaving the powder coated white sides of my cabinet alone but at the time I didn't know better.

Definately put some on your walls if you don't go the titanium paint route and then replace it every so often.

Sicarii

02-08-2010, 01:26 AM

so the print shop gets more money by saving the plates and selling the aluminum to a metal recycler. :nono: on the free reflector for me...:mad:
good news is I have 3' to work with not 2' so I'm going to have space for the 3rd light and then my cab won't be too tight come a bigger bulb.

disciple, thanks for the word about mylar it never occured to me that it would dull over time. super white paint is probably cheaper anyways. I will probably use BW poly for my first run or so but when I upgrade to walls, I will go the paint route.

I have my final frame design now so as soon as I can I will build it.

peace
sicarii

Sicarii

02-18-2010, 01:02 AM

The new cabinet is under construction right now. It's dimensions are 34"x21"x48" (lxwxh). Its made of strapping and angle brackets, cheap and strong. Total $ spent thus far is 6 bucks on wood and 10 on brackets. No sides yet, I'm sourcing panda film in my area. I'll post pics tonight or tomorrow.

peace sicarii
p.s. the next grow will be CocoGrow and pure blend pro nutes.

The Cannarchist

02-18-2010, 08:36 AM

Dollar store emergency blankets (mylar)

dig up your best local soil and mix 50/50 with a bag of perlite.

start from there

Sicarii

02-18-2010, 03:53 PM

Dollar store emergency blankets (mylar)

thanks dude! I have one of those in my travel safety kit. I forgot those were so cheap. I'll have those sides up in a day or two then :teeth:

peace sicarii

Sicarii

02-18-2010, 09:19 PM

So back at the end of January I turned off the light on my plant and stopped watering her. I was planning on starting anew in a bigger cab, bigger light bla bla bla.
So I went to clean out the cabinet a couple of days ago and she was still alive and green. I decided it's a sign that she isn't ready to give up and neither should I.. Lights back on, i bought a pH test kit and found that my tap is 7.8! I adjusted the pH down to 6.5 and flushed untill the runoff was also 6.5. I'm using LK only right now (2tsp/gal as per the bottle) but I'll be getting pure blend pro nutes once I can get to a hydro store.

If I were going to use coco would I want to go with Pure Blend Pro: grow for veg and Pure Blend Pro: Soil for flower? I saw both a bloom and soil but in the soil trial pack it gives grow and soil.

thanks for looking
peace sicarii

Parabola

02-19-2010, 03:03 AM

if you can afford it buy pure blend pro grow and bloom and mix them at 8ml/gal grow and 16 ml/gal bloom then adjust ph if necessary ( i never need to but that is here). if you can't afford both just go with the bloom formula @ 30 ml/gal (under hid lights, less under CF). use the formula for soil and coco. Any beans yet?

Sicarii

02-19-2010, 08:39 PM

no beans yet :( hopefully i will have them after work tonite. So is the pure blend pro soil unnecessary? i will be able to afford the nutes its more a question of scheduling a day off and such to run to a hydro store.

My plan is to have all of it in less than 2 weeks (emphasize plan in that sentence ;) ).
I`ll post updates as stuff happens ;).

peace sicarii

Parabola

02-19-2010, 10:01 PM

just pb pro grow and bloom. no soil formula... it might be something to try later when you try organic soil again. at that point you can choose whether you want to buy products like that anymore. I use about 5ml/gal of LK and 1 tsp/Gal of unsulfured blackstrap molasses along with the pbp grow/bloom solution. that is it

Sicarii

02-20-2010, 03:30 AM

ok cool one less thing to spend money on!
i was told i have some mail from Canada waiting for me :teeth: so that makes going home seem even better!

thanks for the nute numbers
peace sicarii

Sicarii

02-20-2010, 08:17 PM

pure blend pro grow and bloom and mix them at 8ml/gal grow and 16 ml/gal bloom then adjust ph if necessary

about 5ml/gal of LK and 1 tsp/Gal of unsulfured blackstrap molasses along with the pbp grow/bloom solution
Just to clarify, do you mean to use this formula for veg and flower?
thanks
peace sicarii

disciple

02-20-2010, 10:13 PM

Just to clarify, do you mean to use this formula for veg and flower?
thanks
peace sicarii

I have this vague memory of Lucas mentioning a possible cal/mag deficiency when mixing PBP the same as GH Flora (8ml/16ml). Not an impossible problem to overcome tho.

I have no experience with PBP. It seems to be sufficient for veg and flower. Nitrogen always an issue in veg if there is not enough. Probably enough... easy to add... especially if you are using low power lights.

8ml/16ml GH Flora (0 grow, 8 micro, 16 bloom) - per gallon - just worked awesome all through veg with no part of the plant in less than 5500 foot candles. And next to a vertical array. You must be precise tho when mixing because any less and you'll get deficiencies under full light. You don't want that in veg. You may want that in flower.

So with GH Flora mixed at 8/16 ml... it's full game on in veg and flower. That's what made Lucas so famous... a one-stop shop formula from start to finish and with great results. He pushed GH cause he felt they were the most balanced (for the formula as put forth by him)

Hey, is an atom of Nitrogen derived from bat guano different than an atom of Nitrogen from a bottle of GH FloraMicro?

Parabola

02-21-2010, 12:24 AM

Just to clarify, do you mean to use this formula for veg and flower?
thanks
peace sicarii

yes, use for both stages.. and if your water ph is that high you will probably overkill if you add cal/mag. you won't know for sure unless you assay your water, but i wouldn't add anything unless you notice early signs of deficiency.

Monseigneur Stroganoff

02-21-2010, 12:28 AM

good you pointed that out disciple
I see parabola use blackstrap for the cal/mag
I have only good things to say about Lucas formula
get some ph kit so you can see runoff if any problems show up

Monseigneur Stroganoff

02-21-2010, 12:30 AM

yes, use for both stages.. and if your water ph is that high you will probably overkill if you add cal/mag. you won't know for sure unless you assay your water, but i wouldn't add anything unless you notice early signs of deficiency.

word

Sicarii

02-21-2010, 04:53 PM

First off thanks for the clarification P, and thanks for the other responses everyone else :)

I bought a pH test kit at an aquarium store and my pH was off it's chart....it maxed out at 7.8 but my water was darker than the test kit's chart went. I added LK at 2tsp/gal (that's the flowering dosage on the bottle so i figured i'd start there) and it brought my pH to exactly 6.5.

I have gotten more of my cabinet assembled and have the pictures from the construction. I have converted my 2 pendant mount 150 watters to remote ballast and I mounted the ballasts on the frame. I am trying to get all the stuff knocked out that I can before I have to run to the hydro store, that way i need make only one trip ;)

Step 1:
21250
No power tools, ratchet ratchet
21251
The base is a shelf
21252
4' uprights
21253
I can fit my entire previous grow inside of it :teeth:
21254
Remote ballast
21255

21256

This is where we are today
21257

peace and thanks for looking
sicarii

Sicarii

02-21-2010, 09:33 PM

I hung the lights and found my bulbs and wired/powered everything up. This is a test and as you can see...it works :teeth:

21258

thanks for looking
peace sicarii

The Cannarchist

02-22-2010, 04:48 AM

Just make sure you are safe

Sicarii

02-22-2010, 05:50 AM

will do bro. i love weed but I love my wife and my dog more :). nothing gets left alone until its tested and I used to do construction so minor electrical stuff like this is easy. Thanks for the concern
peace and love
sicarii

Sicarii

02-22-2010, 08:59 PM

I'll be getting the nutes from amazon because I found a gift card there and I could use them before the new box is finished.
I should be getting the mylar blankets soon as well. that leaves only a ventilation system to buy/construct. I will have to save a bit for the vortex but not too long. Amusingly enough it should make less noise than my little computer fan does(albeit the cpu fan goes at 5000rpm and the vortex goes at 2500). I can see the finished product and I can't wait.
I think the setbacks force me to fine tune my plans and that's a good thing
peace and thanks for looking
sicarii

The Cannarchist

02-24-2010, 07:45 AM

A nice cheap 10" axial does great and is very quiet

think volume

Sicarii

02-24-2010, 02:17 PM

A nice cheap 10" axial does great and is very quiet

think volume
any particular brand? the ones i keep finding are dayton 10" fans and they don't seem to have much umph, they draw the same amperage as my computer fan...
im still looking tho
thanks
peace sicarii

p.s. nutes and coco are on their way from amazon

Sicarii

02-24-2010, 02:43 PM

another option would be removing the casing of a regular fan and re purposing it into a duct fan....I will have to :joint3: and figure it out
peace

Sicarii

02-24-2010, 08:22 PM

i could do this http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=29341 ...it would be cheap and I can get to HD easy
what do folks think?
peace sicarii

Sicarii

02-25-2010, 12:52 AM

So I promised pictures if I thought she was going to make it. and I still don't know but here they are anyway ;)

2127721278

I flushed the soil with 2l of pH adjusted water (for a 1l pot) to try to get rid of as much of the blood meal and other dry fertilizers as possible. When the pbp arrives, I will start using the formula Parabola outlined.
I think she will make it and I'll keep giving her positive thought

peace and thanks for looking
sicarii

Parabola

02-25-2010, 02:44 AM

looks good, don't feed with anything but ph adjusted water until it starts to look hungry. take some cuts once you see vigorous growth if you are sure it is a girl. do you know how to spot pre-flowers?

Sicarii

02-25-2010, 02:47 AM

i do and this is a fem seed
peace

Parabola

02-25-2010, 02:59 AM

nice, that skill will come in handy a little later....

Sicarii

02-25-2010, 03:18 AM

indeed it will ;) thanks for the opportunity
peace

Sicarii

02-25-2010, 08:47 PM

vapor

02-25-2010, 10:48 PM

sorry if this has been said already do you let your planties dry out really good inbetween watering.,., if i am really dry i will splash them first with a little bit of water and come back to them and water them with the rest and it absorbs better.,.,peace

disciple

02-26-2010, 12:06 AM

one thing i noticed during the flush was that the pot was super heavy even after it finished draining into the sink. When I water normally, I get runoff but the pot is much lighter...does this mean I'm not evenly wetting the medium when I water normally?
if so, is that bad or am I just paranoid for my last little girl?
peace and thanks
sicarii

yeah man... you can take a super light, super dry pot of media... pour water (solution) into it and get runoff. If the soil(less) separates on the sides, the water runs right down and out. Sometimes a side of the media from top to bottom gets saturated and then you get runoff but there are still dry pockets.

The best way to deal with this is two-fold.

One, take Pro-mix HP and a big bag of perlite and mix them up 50/50. Then use that as your medium. The Pro-mix will provide wicking action so if you pour water in over here.... some of it'll get drawn over there. More even wetting. Also, with the extra perlite, your wet-dry cycle will shorten so you run less chance of over-watering (popular rookie mistake). If driven optimally you should get better, faster growth (bigger).

Second, do what he said and wet the surface of your pot first and come back in a few mins. Then pour some more in... not so much that you get an inch deep on the top of the pot but more than the first pass. Repeat. Slow your watering down and I'll bet ya get a heavy pot with minimal runoff.

Just checked your photo again. Your plant looks overwatered and over fertilized. Common practice is to bury the peat pot (or rockwool cube) when you transplant. Now that you've flushed her good, let it dry out. The leaves will stick out and get really flat, not curled down and cupping. The burnt parts won't go away but won't get worse and the new growth should be as expected. This plant is totally savable.

Sicarii

02-26-2010, 02:20 AM

oh. i did not know that. thanks
peace sicarii

Sicarii

03-03-2010, 02:06 PM

Ok, home from the hospital, time for an update. She is doing well, I think she is almost ready for nutrients again. That's good because they are coming in the mail today.

I am getting close to having the larger cab finished. I found some reflective Poly-shield that I had laying around and I have just enough to cover the fame. I have not sealed it up yet however because I am still awaiting funds for the blower fan.

Here is my little girl sorry for the crappy quality, I will try to get at a better camera today.
21311 21313

thanks for looking
peace sicarii

vapor

03-03-2010, 10:52 PM

looks asthough your new growth is responding nicely!

disciple

03-04-2010, 02:55 PM

She is doing well, I think she is almost ready for nutrients again.

why do you say that?

what would happen if you let the soil dry out quite well and then gave only ph'd water for, say, 1 or 2 more wet/dry cycles? Let the plant start to lighten up and show a bit of Nitrogen deficiency so you know your soil is cleaner then feed.... and start with half (or less) the recommended dosage on the bottle...

looks like your strain is a light feeder. now that she is doing better, you can avoid the tip burn and curling under seen in the lower older leaves

Sicarii

03-04-2010, 03:57 PM

why do you say that?

what would happen if you let the soil dry out quite well and then gave only ph'd water for, say, 1 or 2 more wet/dry cycles? Let the plant start to lighten up and show a bit of Nitrogen deficiency so you know your soil is cleaner then feed.... and start with half (or less) the recommended dosage on the bottle...

looks like your strain is a light feeder. now that she is doing better, you can avoid the tip burn and curling under seen in the lower older leaves

i really meant almost. I totally agree that she isn't ready yet. I got the nutes yesterday but felt that I should just give her the pH'd water for another 2 waterings.

I have been reading Ask Lucas and he recommended 0-5-10 as a low light formula. I think it might be best to start there and see what happens. I imagine that I could scale the Liquid karma and molasses equally and stay on the safe side.
^^^^that's my newbie grower logic, if it is faulty please tell me ;)

peace and thanks for looking
sicarii

guest

03-04-2010, 04:50 PM

Here's the easiest way in the world to water: Get a larger, deeper tray and fill it when watering. Bottom watering is beneficial to root growth and solves the problem of runoff and inadequate moisture.

Sicarii

03-04-2010, 08:23 PM

I think my pot is about 1 quart. how big of a tray would you recommend? and would I still water the same amount?

on another note. when mixing pbp 0-5-10 in a gallon of my tap water, the pH drops to something in between 6.0 and 6.5. Should I try to increase the pH to 6.5 or is that close enough? If I should, would baking soda be acceptable?

peace and thanks for looking
sicarii

vapor

03-04-2010, 11:57 PM

if i am close i opt for no ph up or down.,.,

disciple

03-05-2010, 01:35 AM

I have been reading Ask Lucas and he recommended 0-5-10 as a low light formula. I think it might be best to start there and see what happens.

Yeah :)! Yeah :)! Yeah :)! Yeah :)! Yeah :)!

(only prob is he used GH Flora, if you have problems... don't blame the Formula if you are using PBP)

I imagine that I could scale the Liquid karma and molasses equally and stay on the safe side.

or avoid them altogether for 6 months to a year.

I think my pot is about 1 quart. how big of a tray would you recommend? and would I still water the same amount?

If the tray is too deep the plant will float. I can use a prop tray to water (8) little bonsai moms in 5 1/2 square pots. a good measure would be to have water come up to 3/5 the height of your pot. Watch over night and add water to the container until the plant is not wicking up any more. Then remove so that excess can drain from the pot. That is the beginning of wet/dry cycle. It's good to run nutrient through from topside once in a while so there is some flush/replacement of stale/salt buildup.

on another note. when mixing pbp 0-5-10 in a gallon of my tap water, the pH drops to something in between 6.0 and 6.5. Should I try to increase the pH to 6.5 or is that close enough?

drop to 5.8 once in a while. different nutrients are absorbed at different pH levels.

guest

03-05-2010, 03:34 AM

For something that small, I'd say roughly about the size of a pie tin; In other words, an inch and a half deep and about double the circumference.

Parabola

03-05-2010, 05:10 AM

i really meant almost. I totally agree that she isn't ready yet. I got the nutes yesterday but felt that I should just give her the pH'd water for another 2 waterings.

I have been reading Ask Lucas and he recommended 0-5-10 as a low light formula. I think it might be best to start there and see what happens. I imagine that I could scale the Liquid karma and molasses equally and stay on the safe side.
^^^^that's my newbie grower logic, if it is faulty please tell me ;)

peace and thanks for looking
sicarii

Using PBP is not the lucas method really, but using grow/bloom in 1:2 ratio works really well for me and others who can confirm. please don't confuse the method I use with Lucas' . I have used both general hydroponics in the prescribed Lucas method and PBP and I prefer the finished herb the way I currently do it. Some won't agree but I know what I like and am cool with differences of opinion. We all have to find out what is what we like best for ourselves.

yes the ph will come down when you add nutes. I recommend adding the nutes, lk, and molasses and then leaving in a bucket with an airstone in for a few days before adding to plants. check the ph and adjust then only if needed. I don't adjust my ph at all.