Root restriction and flowering

[Monseigneur Stroganoff]

Hello all

How many liters of soil is too much? Can you plant it in a pot and dig the pot down or will the roots penitrate through and youre fucked??? Can someone write me a 101?

This summer I will go for danish hermie spesial to the boogie 2000 outdoor mix and mabe something else. Hehe...

ALBI

[capt carnuba]

5 gallons or 18 liters should insure a good growth potential along with major root binding. Visions EGMMSS bound up nice and came in 2 days under his Aug 28th prediction.

[Monseigneur Stroganoff]

Perfect. 5 gallons are easy to handle. Is it ok to dig the holde thing down so people dont see what im doing? I go guerilla you see.

What I have done before is that I used black plastic bags with holes and 50 liter soil. Im not sure if it was root resticting. Easier to go with 18 litres. Less work....... :high:

ALBI

[capt carnuba]

And you can move them if need be. Keeping the bag in the air and out of a hole affords more air tothe roots.However, It requires more frequent watering.It's all a trade off with your security and your needs and abilities.

[c-ray]

if you are going to use plastic above ground get some burlap and cover it up for camoflauge purposes

[The Cannarchist]

The biggest you should do is 10 gal/38ltr.I use 10 gal grow bags(cheap)

Slash the bottoms with a knife and bury 3/4 into a hole in the ground.The tap roots will follow the water table but the side roots will get rootbound and bring the plant in earlier.

A 5 gal will bring them in earlier,but as above ,you will need to water them more.

[c-ray]

the earlier you transplant the larger you want your bag to be, if you are transplanting by early june 10 gallons is good, if transplanting towards late june then you can go with smaller bags like 5 gallons...generally speaking

[The Cannarchist]

True.

I like a nice large seedling at the 8-9th node for a 10 gal out on June 1st.Once they sex you can clone into 5 gal pots and get another set out by the end of june.

[kisanth]

True.

I like a nice large seedling at the 8-9th node for a 10 gal out on June 1st.
Once they sex you can clone into 5 gal pots and get another set out by the end of june.

So.... you put a seedling, 8-9th node, out on june 1st. Once they sex you take clones which get placed in 5 gal pots and are out by the end of june?

Am I missing something? Boy I hope so....

[Hillbilly]

UhOh!! This isn't good! TC I'm using 25 gal bags this year, wasn't planning on burying them, so I only did holes on the sides so that water would hold up a little longer at the bottom. I've got all those early genetics, Early bramble, EGxMMSS, Super Gold, now I'm worried that my bags are to big and I wont get the early harvest. How important is the root restriction? I'll have some nice seedlings (like TC said 8-9 node) going out at the end of May...
What do you guys think?

[capt carnuba]

Well hillbilly, why not put 5 plants in what sounds like a heavy duty contractor bag. It will be the same result. Leave it lipped over the top of the soil to keep moisture trapped. Heres another good fun tip: if you have any excess pvc piping and some gumption, use 4-5 foot lengths to drive through the bottom of the bag and into the soil for some lucky plant toget a good tap. remember, extract tube and clear of dirt before filling bag. :)

[Monseigneur Stroganoff]

C-ray WTF is burlap?

Thanx for the tips guys. :high:

Do strains like Ak-47 and Sweet Tooth finish (the autoflower ones) with this restiction???

ALBI

[c-ray]

burlap -> http://images.google.ca/images?q=burlap&hl=en&btnG=Search+Images

[Hillbilly]

Hey Capt.
I was thinking of putting 3-5 plants in each bag depending on if they are sexed by the time I'm ready to put them out. The bags are 23 inches round so there's lots of room. So you figure that should help root bind them?? I hope so because I really need the early harvest.
You know that PVC in the ground thing sounds like an interesting technique, unfortunetly the dirt is already in the bags. I was thinking of putting some mulch on top of the soil to keep it moist. There's about 4-5 inches left on the top of the bags so I'm gona top them with some dry leaves I racked off the lawn. I'm hopping it will keep me out of there for two weeks at a time. I should also mension that I added 4 oz of polymers crystals to the bottom half of the bags.
Thanks for the info Capt!
Hillbilly

[The Cannarchist]

You should expect 4oz from those sized seedlings Hillbilly.Put 4 in each 25 gal bag.it will give the same sort of results as though each one were in it's own pot.The roots will touch each other and help induce the early finish.No probs,guy!

[Hillbilly]

Hey TC,
Thanks man, always nice to get your input, now I'm complitetly confident that I'll get my August finish. Don't know if you noticed in my other post, but your Super Gold's are looking killer!! So are your salmonberry, but man I'm really getting excited about those SG :) I'm not really impressed with the early bramble I got from AAA seeds though, they seem a little week but there are some good ones in there that I'll be selecting... Now if I could get them sexed within the next week or so...
This is going to be awesome, I've never worked with plants that finish in August. Usually they don't start flowering before August 10th, arrggg.
This year is going to be awesome, now hopefully we get some rain so that I'm not having to visit those big bags every 4-5 days. They're calling for a very hot and dry summer, which isn't a bad thing, but it could mean allot of work.
OK, well only a little while yet... :) Wooot!!

[c-ray]

about root restriction....some strains do not have the most vigorous root system and these types of plants generally don't require root restriction to improve flowering times...usually this applies to the august finishing strains, they finish so fast that they don't have in their nature to make a vigorous root system

[Greens]

If anyone is wondering, Guerilla Gold does not need root restrictions for early flowering even though it is an early gold hybrid. They will flower very early straight in the ground or in a container.

Hillbilly, yeah, sticking 4 in each of those would be a good idea if you want some root restriction going on. Maybe even more if you have to pull the males out.

Greens

[capt carnuba]

Hey William Hill, William Hill bein the extraction of Hill Billy, not a problem. 4 or 5 will do really well. If they aren't sexed toss in 8, that way, even with really bad rates,no work or bag haulin is wasted. June 7th is also magic reseeding day, two weeks of seed growth then tossed into the waning June 21st sun.

[Hillbilly]

Thanks for the info guys!
Good point C-ray, never thought about the slower root growth on the earlies.

Greens I was going to put 5 in each bag if they are not sexed and 3 if they are sexed. That's all the seedlings I have, so I want to make sure I'm using all the bags. And I'm thinking that less plants would mean a little less water requirements per bag. I'm not worried about the EB either, I know they are esentially the same plant as your GG so I know I'll have an early harvest with those. The add at AAA seeds was to expect an Aug. 15 to Sept.5 Harvest. Because I'm at 46 lat. and not 50 they'll probably be done closer to the Aug.15 date than the Sept.5. Makes sense right??

Capt, Damn! I'm busted, you figured out my name :) I wish I could wait till then to put them out, but my seeds have been out of the ground since April 18th. Most are starting their 6th set of leaves and I'm running out of room. At the latest they'll have to go out on the 1st.

Thanks for including me in on this early stuff guys, especially one perticular person and you know who you are ;)

[Brick Top]

How can you have too much soil? I know people that grow outdoors just in the ground so the roots have the entire continent to use and they get great plants and great yields.

I can see having to little soil. You have a 1 to 1 ratio of whatever you see above ground there is an equal amount below ground. Imagine repotting your plants upside down, all the plant in the area you

[c-ray]

yes that's true a big rootspace will let the plant grow big, but the advantages of root restriction are that the plant will start flowering sooner and the buds will be tighter...the key is to find the balance

[Hillbilly]

Well guys what would be the coldest temps the plants could handle??? I checked on the babies on Saturday and I don't think I can keep them inside much longer, they are growing way to fast and approching the 12 inch mark. If I get another 7-8 days inside I'll be doing well, quite a few are already in the lights (especially supergolds) and there as high as they go. Don't know what to do, and I'm not real keen on topping them...
I got to eager to start them, should of waited another week or so. Oh well the weather is fairly nice right now and I'm pretty sure the risk of frost is gone. (46 lat)

[The Cannarchist]

Are they sexed yet?What node are you at?

[Hillbilly]

Well TC I didn't look real hard, I notice one supergold that looked like it was starting to flower at the 6th just like you said, but there wasn't a hole lot of pre-flowers showing. They are pretty much all starting their 6th and if not their 5th.
I'll check on them again tomorrow and look a little harder for pre-flowers...

[The Cannarchist]

You should try to hold them under the lights for as long as possible.If you need to top them they will be ok with a single topping after the 7th node.If you put them out now the outside light may not be long enough to keep them in veg.Or,if you have a greenhouse can you supplement it with some light to extend the daylight?

[c-ray]

above 4 degrees celcius is the safety zone, below that and you'll see some sad sad meristems, below 10 degrees celcius and you'll see purple stems

[Hillbilly]

TC, I hear ya man, right now I think we're around 15 hours daylight and 9 hour nights. You think that'll force them into flowering?? I wouldn't put them out till the 20th for sure so the nights would be even shorter. I duno man, I'll have to see if I can rig something tonight that will give me some more head space. Man this sucks, I was told daylight deluxe bulbs would keep them really short but they're not. I've had much tighter internodes with just cheap cool white bulbs. What a waste of money.

C-ray thanks man, I knew they could handle in the low 40 F didn't know what that was in Celsius. So I'm pretty much sure they would be OK outside, it hasn't gone down past 6 degrees at night for a couple weeks now.

Well guys I'll have to check on things tonight and see what I can do, best case senario for me right now is to be able to hold on to them till the May 27th weekend...

Taker easy folks...
HB

[capt carnuba]

I savage my little buggers. They've been out for 2 weeks now. The only new blood that has weathered this well are CC's PPBMMSS. The temp has dipped as far as 1 degree C. Heri's and hardy c99's seem to come through with flying colours. A little cover foliage helps mitigate frost damage. This abuse ensures a robust seedlot every year.

[Hillbilly]

Hey thanks Capt. Makes me feel a little better. I don't think they would see anything bellow 5-6 degrees from now on. The only thing I'm worried about now is that the earlies would start flowering if put out to early. I checked the difference in daytime lengths from the 20th of may and the first of June and it's only 15 mins. So I don't think the 15 mins is going to make a big difference...

[c-ray]

at 0-4 degrees celcius a piece of plastic on the plants or on some sort of frame above the plants will keep the frost off the plants, but there are no guarantees that all the plants will survive this only the hardiest
below 0 degrees is really pushing it, but there are some genetics that will actually survive it...

one more note, you will get hardier seedlings (and stalkier plants) starting them outdoors in the cool temps, they will grow significantly slower, but the plants will explode when the warmth comes and they will be stronger plants in all respects

[The Cannarchist]

Well I know how many you have.....Try putting a couple of male Super Golds out and see how they do.You will not lose anything on that test.My males are showing now @ node 6.

[capt carnuba]

What are super golds?

[The Cannarchist]

Earliest Super Salmon Dad(coastal BC strain,inbreed for generations) x Early Gold.Dad was done 1st week August,well done! Should add some purples into the mix .

[Hillbilly]

Hey guys,
Checked on the babies last night, they are doing well, a little flimzy, but well.

Most of them are on their 6th, and starting their 7th node, so hopefully the males will start showing soon on the SG. The only pre-flowers I seen were on my Wizards Treat and a couple EGxMMSS. I've got no more head space, most are growing into the lights and some tops are starting to burn, not good!!
So I guess either way they have to go out this weekend or else I'll end up with some plants that were topped by the lights :(

I'm amazed on how my Wizards treat are so uniform and tight. They have the same amount of nodes as all other plants but 4-5 inches shorter. Most are starting to show pre-flowers also, that's at 4 weeks from when the seeds went into the ground. Really eager to see what they will do outdoors...

Well we're getting rain here for the next 2-3 days so the bags should be nice and wet by the time I get out there...

[Monseigneur Stroganoff]

Do strains like Ak-47 and Sweet Tooth finish (the autoflower ones) with this restiction???


?

ALBI

[Hillbilly]

Hey TC,
What's up man?? Well everything is set up and most are sexed. Looking good, I've got this one MMSSxEG that is looking awesome. Got some real nice branching going on and has high vigour. I'm having a hard time keeping the rabbits away, but that's the name of the game I guess.
Well later man,
keep an eye out for some pics of Visioncreator genetics!!!
HillBilly

[Puffs]

excellent thread, this forum is the best one for AF\early flower stuff no doubt...of unlimited value to us polarbear neighbours :)

[c-ray]

haha just don't say the L word

[The Cannarchist]

Yeah I wonder what happen to that grow.......???? I was looking forward to seeing those babies finish!

[guest]

Well,

Many of you have grown Timebomb and Im curious to your opinion on it's root growth. I'm putting them out (@ 8th-9th node) in the last week of May and they can flower into October in these parts, though I want to bring them in by mid-September. I was thinking of putting them in 15 gallon grow bags. Is 15 gallons too big for Timebomb?

I wanted to use 15 gallons to give them more space to grow as I've always read that increased root space offers opportunity for increased yield. I was originally going to put them in 10 gallon bags but I was concerned that would limit root growth too much. I'm shooting for 3/4 to 1 pound per plant...of course something like 8lbs per plant would be ok too! :drool:

Another thought is NAA...ala Superthrive, etc. Do you guys/gals use root growth enhancers or auxins like NAA? Seems like those chems (like Superthrive) would cause root restriction a good deal sooner than is normal. This maybe something to take into consideration.

:D

[outdoordreams]

I think that 15gallon bags would be great for the Timebomb.
If you looking for 8lbs, your going to need a way bigger bucket.

Superthrive is great, your plants will love the extra roots.


If you can cover your plants with a garbage bag for 36hours, this may help you acheive an earlier finish time.

[guest]

Thanks,

Superthrive is great, your plants will love the extra roots.

I personally don't use superthrive as I hear a lot of disconcerting things about it's "inverter". Anyway, the two plant active substances that make superthrive great are triacontanol and Naphthalene Acetic Acid (NAA). One thing is that these hormones and auxins will accumulate over time so light dosages are better, besides, small quantities of this stuff has a big effect.

NAA is an auxin and it increases root size/weight and that's what makes superthrive give huge roots. Personally, I would just buy som NAA 98%, dissolve, mix and dilute to 50ppm for root application and 1:10,000 for foliar application. NAA is most bioactive when applied as a foliar spray once every two or three weeks.

Triacontanol is a plant hormone and is the other important ingredent superthrive. It can be extracted from alfalfa meal when brewed in a tea (1/2 cup per gallon to aerated tea).

I also like to add Willow Tree Bark which contains "salicylic acid" (SA), this isn't included within superthirve but it's on the same topic. SA is a phytohormone; and a phenol, ubiquitous in plants generating a significant impact on plant growth and development, photosynthesis, transpiration, ion uptake and transport and also induces specific changes in leaf anatomy and chloroplast structure. (add about 1/8 cup of crushed/shredded willow bark per gallon to aerated tea)

If you can cover your plants with a garbage bag for 36hours, this may help you acheive an earlier finish time.

What, does this initiate flowering? Would you do this in early August or something?

I'm more concerned about tightening up the buds via. root restriction than in getting an earlier finishing time. The timebomb is supposed to be done by the end of September anyway, so that's fine for me...though if I could bring them in earlier without compromising on yield I'd be happy to do so!

:D

[The Cannarchist]

The boys are doing C-Warp in 3 gallon buckets on drippers and getting 8 oz on a plant by Sept 7th.The regular plant gets a pound at the end of Sept in 20 gallons.

Root restriction works Gojo.You got to have a good watering regime though.

[guest]

thanks cannarchist,

I'm pretty far into the woods so I think I'll stick to the 15 gallons...but 8oz in 3gal, wow! I'm really looking forward to the Timebomb, what is "C-warp"...sounds like I should find me some!... :fish:

PS. Did you see my PM?

later :joint2:

[The Cannarchist]

Closely related to the Timebomb.An Early version of the Timewarp.

I'll look back for your PM

[ghostryder]

gogo: get the industrial sized garbage bags as they are total black! the household 1's are transparent; see thru. cover inside or out side plants for 36 hours; well inside keep the lights out. got ahead of myself that time. this will "force" flower and knock up to the 2 week pre-flower stage out of the cycle.

[ghostryder]

isnt c-warp a c99 cross?

[The Cannarchist]

No The " C" Denotes that it came from the male of C1 , a specific early heavy yielding pheno of EarlyGold.

The C-warp is that onto the Timewarp twister Female clone.

Looks better than most indoor and is sold as such into the bottom 48.I prefer the Pinewarp as it is much stronger in kick.

The C -warp commands 5 G's a clone.and only if they like you.

[ghostryder]

the C1 any relation to the C4 i believe from legends? i grew this and the FROSTBITE years ago. neither were that good for yeild. biker bud and to get the fore-runners were very expensive. legends was not allowed to retail unless they hybrided the originals. came out of quebec.

[ghostryder]

now that kick started some memories; i have forgotten so much!

Guerilla Gold a.k.a GG then Passion #1 (Amstel Gold) x Early Pearl this: hybrid crossed to GG = Early Gold

the early gold was crossed with the mexican Acapulco Gold for market

we crossed the early gold with the Himalayan Gold: a sativa head high and a cold couch body stone - great for sensitivity. got you "in-tune" with your body - sexual orgasims without intercourse.

[The Cannarchist]

Nice description but the EG we have is not what you are quoting.

Your C4 info is wrong as well.Helps to actually be able to chat with the makers.

No dutch stuff here,bar the now 7 1985 Skunk #1 seedlings I have going.The Dutch went to pot(sic) after 1988.

I'll just put it down to your sense of humor

[vavilov]

What a great thread. How many weeks on average is getting knocked off with proper root restriction? I am guessing 2-3? In particular I am wondering about timebomb (first wk Oct finish w/o restriction in my area). In a hunting area so my regular strain mix are about 2-3 weeks too late!

[guest]

Hey,

I just got my root girdling/pruning/restriction bags. The key is the hole size, 2-3 millimeter is ideal, that size girdles the roots so they form 'knots' and from much more 'sub' roots. I have a few good papers on the subject I will upload soon. But the resutls are thus: 'air-pruning' bags are not as effective as 'root pruning' bags (if 2-3 mm holes), and both are more effective than 'root trapping' bags (think LST for roots).

The only two companies who offer root pruning bags with 2-3 mm holes are SuperRoots "Fielder" bags, but they are not available. And RootMaker "In Ground" fabric bags, and there cheap!

Here they are, along with many other types of bags/pots, such as air-pruning (RootMaker I and II), root-pruning (Knit Fabric Containers) and root-trapping (RootTrapper, RootTrapper Grounder).

For peat type of media use the "Knit Fabric Containers (In-Ground)", they are the root-pruning ones. DO NOT use the "RootTrapper", the media will become anaerobic. The root-trapping bags in intended for long-term media like pine bark, geolite, lava rock, etc.

Here is what we want. I use the 8" (diameter) bags and I put each one in a 5 gallon (12" diameter) grow bag. So the girdled roots can grow through the bag and into the media between bags, thus increasing root ball size. But with root-pruning you can get more out of less because the density of roots will be much higher than in traditional bags.

Scroll down to "Knit Fabric Containers (In-Ground)", the green bags:
http://www.rootmaker.com/rmprod.php

I'll report back in about 2.5 months ;)