F1s from elite clones...

[zif]

Ever since Vic High posted about RRS, I've been mulling over using the logic to develop true F1s from elite clones.

In RRS, two inbred lines are developed, where intercrossing establishes the combining ability of the lines. Selection in each line is guided by the performance of each parent's progeny in cross with the other line.

What if we used a clone as one line? Then we would only need to develop a single inbred line, where selection in that line is performed by assessing performance of males with the elite clone. Judicial use of backcrossing to the inbred line (when, though?) to establish favorable allelic combinations for selection could ensure that the line had high combining ability with the elite.

Seems to be a hell of a lot cleaner than cubing, and a fairly plant-number efficient strategy towards developing a pure breeding and F1 line in tandem. Any thoughts?

zif

[Cuzin_Dave]

One has to differentiate sometimes between the legitimate plant world and the cannabis plant world. A true F1 is usually a selected cross from two separate true breeding parental lines. In many, but not all cases the P1 parents are from true breeding open pollinated varieties and bred for specific reasons like maturity, yield, disease resistance and so on. In the world of cannabis parlance F1 usually means first filial cross from genetic sources unknown. As a general rule most of the elite clones in the world of cannabis come from multiple out crosses (poly hybrid) and seldom breed true for anything. Actually replicating a poly hybrid clone is a near mathematical impossibility especially when dealing with a low effective Ne. If a clone represents a rare phenotype, it is most likely a heterozygote that represents an extremely rare low frequency combinatorial in its genetic constitution. Lets say for example that the elite clone is a pentahybrid, something like AABbccddEe. The chances of replicating exactly the same as the MUM plant would be (.25 x .50 x .25 x .25 x .50) = .0039063. Approximately 4 plants in 1000 would be identical to the elite clone. The odds get even more minuscule when Ne is very small.

[Shmokin]

One has to differentiate sometimes between the legitimate plant world and the cannabis plant world. A true F1 is usually a selected cross from two separate true breeding parental lines. In many, but not all cases the P1 parents are from true breeding open pollinated varieties and bred for specific reasons like maturity, yield, disease resistance and so on. In the world of cannabis parlance F1 usually means first filial cross from genetic sources unknown. As a general rule most of the elite clones in the world of cannabis come from multiple out crosses (poly hybrid) and seldom breed true for anything. Actually replicating a poly hybrid clone is a near mathematical impossibility especially when dealing with a low effective Ne. If a clone represents a rare phenotype, it is most likely a heterozygote that represents an extremely rare low frequency combinatorial in its genetic constitution. Lets say for example that the elite clone is a pentahybrid, something like AABbccddEe. The chances of replicating exactly the same as the MUM plant would be (.25 x .50 x .25 x .25 x .50) = .0039063. Approximately 4 plants in 1000 would be identical to the elite clone. The odds get even more minuscule when Ne is very small.

So you're saying there's a chance.

[mace]

rofl Smhokin :D

a chance of .0039063 if he's lucky...

[suzy cremecheese]

Good post Zif,

Cubing is generally being misused in Cannabis breeding. If you havent read me post on it before, in the plant breeding world the technique is intended to be used for introducing one trait into an otherwise desirable plant without altering the existing traits.

Many Cannabis breeders use it to try and recreate elite clone onlys in seed form while in reality they are just eliminating many potentially beneficial alleles from the original while hoping to get close enough to the original so that folks will pay 10+ dollars per seed.

I like the way you think. If you put together a program like that please keep us posted on it as much as possible.

[c-ray]

elite clones are only deemed elite by todays standards of bare minimum plant # breeding, really we need to grow fields of seeds and select for elite seedlines with traits conducive to the outdoor environment...in the meantime while we are waiting for prohibition to wind down a good alternative is to take a generation of seeds and share amongst friends (breeders) in multiple outdoor environments, everybody grows what they can and each makes some seeds using the best adapted multiple females and multiple males -> making sure that all friends are educated as to what traits are being selected for amongst the group...then at the end of the season all the friends swap seeds, remix, and do the same each year...genetic diversity will maximized and the seeds will gain an intelligence from growing under a multitude of environments...

[tiedye420]

I do what i call "shotgun breeding" quite often. It's really VERY simple, I'll be doing one soon. This thread was inspiring to me this morning, I'll tell you why.
Im currently rooting some urkle cuts, I'll be taking cuts from some of my better moms, and aquiring cuts from abroad, like the mazar I sheriff cut i scored at the club. I would rather have cuts I can trust a little better- club cuts have mites and PM (just erradicated my grow- starting over), and they of course call it whatever they feel like calling it.
So im planning to stack up a few elites in there, while I do an open pollenation of the G im running. Im also sending out test beans to friends from the last OP done this way....(all gone sorry)
because i can make more crosses in a year than i can possibly test in a year.
If any get "rave reviews" then I know it's time to get started making more of them.
As to building the pool from within, I couldnt agree more it needs to happen.
C-ray I just LOVE that idea of yours, that could work very well.
Anyways im hoping for 15 or so good breeding males from the g this summer.

[Cuzin_Dave]

Crossing elite clones to established lines has been a technique used repeatedly for the better part of the past 30 years with at best mixed results. Most of the Dutch seed industry in its nascent stages relied on a very small sampling of US bred genetics in clone form. The clones were crossed with reliable males usually Skunk or Super Skunk to produce F1 seeds for sale on the commercial market. Genetic diversity in most of today's cannabis lines disappeared decades ago as did most of the original parental seed lines. Extinct is forever as far as the world of genetics is concerned.
The lack of original breeding stock for cannabis won't necessarily be overcome by making F1 hybrids from poly hybrid clone MUMS.

[country boy]

Cuz,
You hit it on the head!
It's those 'proven' males that are golden, while those 'elite' moms, come and go...

Wonder how vic's doing with the RRS thingy? Read a few threads that reeked of 'book learning' and little actual practice...

Don't get me wrong, BCGA put out decent stuff, ecxept for that nasty, auto-flowering habit...

Suzy-Soul messed with our minds with that cubing stuff-except he did put out that C99 that kind of 'proved the rule'...
Not exact copies but selected for certain traits, that 'hopefully' bred true, i.e. short flower time, great, if short-lived buzz, and a PM magnet...Even Soul said it'd take lot's of F2's of C99 to come up with a decent 'mom' that retains the 'F1' generation's traits...

[tiedye420]

cuzin dave
But let's say you were trying to match genotype with the crosses.
This year im into testing my chocolate columbian, for possible parentage to the choclate thai. "Recombination".
Also Im wanting to use "urkle" and "bubba kush" and purple kush, old elites that might be a cousin to the G-13 Im running from seed.
My donor was clowning with me today, He was laughing so hard about some old sport of the G-13 that died. But I got to thinking after that. And sure enough. Robert clarke mentions "sport" as a genetic mutation.
Then I realized why my donor was crakin up so hard. I told him all about my mutant. Even about the same type mutation I had grown as a kid- no more than 13. Anyways im ramblin on about it, but you'll understand why.
My mutant IS a G-13 sport, just hitting veg for the summer.She is beautiful and getting pregnant soon.
But i figure what the heck- might as well run some old kush and afghani based cuts with my "proven males..'of the g-13 .
some call me a madman....
some call me tiedye
later guys


"

[tiedye420]

ROLMAO nothing better than a positive attitude.:yay:
So you're saying there's a chance.

[Cuzin_Dave]

I think you mean trying to match compatible phenotypes. Genotype refers to the entire genetic constitution and potential of the parental lines. Each individual plant you grow will have a unique discrete genotype. Phenotype refers to the observable physical characteristics of the plant and is determined by both heredity and environment. Not all allelic possibilities are expressed in gross phenotype.

[tiedye420]

Yes this is true dave
and the basis of my theory of course.
What is a cross called when breeding "within the genotype".
I'll tell you it's called a truebreed, not a hybrid.
So if I can match an "afghani" and a "kush" and I use a kush of afghani genotype (confusing thing about kush- afghani and pakistani genotypes, pure indica and hybrid indicaXsativas exist.) Then I'll experience what is called "recombination".
of course with any experimentation much testing is in order.
It's a common belief that "hybrids " are better. Im not common. I believe truebreeding strains and IBL are the best. Im not concerned with "fast growth" as opposed to "knock your dick in the dirt" Potency.
So I want to play around this yearand make a few trubreeds, recombinate a few old kush's and special cuts. Urkle and ECSD are already online for the project,And a few old strains of mine.
I'll tell ya it's always something around here...

[Cuzin_Dave]

Crossing an Indica from the Chitral Valley with an Indica from Kandahar would still be an F1 from out crossed genetic lines. The plants might have similar or dissimilar genotypes. The lines crossed would however have no alleles identical by descent and no coefficient of ancestry. It would not be much different from crossing Jack Herer with Super Silver Haze. Both lines would have some alleles that were the same or similar, but not necessarily linked by consanguinity.

[c-ray]

logic states that an ibl and/or 'true breeding' strain will grow significantly less vigorously if a significant amount of heterozygosity is removed in each generation of inbreeding
see the Effective breeding population FAQ (https://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/showthread.php?t=459) for more insight
for vigor.. start off with as many parents (males and females) in the initial crossing and use as many parents (males and females) as possible/necessary in subsequent F (filial) generations

[tiedye420]

Thanks c-ray.
Didn't know virility could be manipulated in trubreeds like that- good point. O.P. all the way baby.
Anyways C-ray do you know much about increasing virility through breeding with "sports". because i got one from that rare ghani im running...

[c-ray]

virility is related to heterozygosity, think about that

[Cuzin_Dave]

Homozygote versus heterozygote advantage is a debatable point and unlikely to be resolved anytime soon. The real concern is whether or not the highest relative "fitness" levels for a given population occur in the middle or the extrema of the curve. Assuming hybrid advantage the heterzygotes would be in the middle of the population and the curve would have a very steep middle. Fitness would decline with increased homozygosity in the population. The least fit phenotypes under this scenario would be the all dominant AABBCCDD and the "wild type" all recessive aabbccdd. Hybrid vigour is also called over dominance. Under a scenario of under dominance those phenotypes found at the extremes of the population AABBCCDD and aabbccdd would be the fittest with the least fit population members in the middle. In other words the fitness curve in the under dominance scenario would be the negative of the heterozygote curve. The population curve would help determine the appropriate selection methods. In the under dominance model disruptive selections are made between the extremes while under the over dominance model stabilising selections are made based on the fitness of the intermediate phenotype.

[zif]

Damn, is it good to see CW back in action!

Also interesting to see where an admittedly far-out idea takes us. If you haven't read Michael Pollan's "Botany of Desire", I suggest you start there when trying to tackle these issues. Amazingly, it is the best first-person account of the effects of trying to deal with outbreeding plants that I can recall reading. Consider in particular the nature of apple breeding.

Cuzin_Dave, your posts are quite interesting - the Mendelian perspective certainly argues against the technique I suggested, but if you consider it, it makes most all breeding techniques laughable. Mendel gave us a system for considering the effects of individual genes, but in practice we need to consider not just the effects, but the interactive effects, of thousands of genes. Not very practicable with the numbers of plants possibly planted on the whole earth, never mind in a particular gardener's closet (except when you have a specific trait in mind, of course, which follows Mendel's laws, when all is clear). What we want is to gain a way beyond what Mendel's laws give us in their raw form - that's what modern selection practices are all about.

Additionally, think about the genetic status of any elite clone. The worst case scenario is that it is entirely heterozygous (i.e. genetically, the truest possible F1). Most won't be, and so will have some alleles that do not cause segregation in even the ideal IBL x clone offspring. What does a compatible IBL provide for the elite clones? More interestingly, with respect to specific traits, what can we expect from an "F1" between the clone and a so selected IBL?

Consider that RSS gives us is an extremely clear breeding goal. What recurrent selection against a clone gives us is an even clearer breeding goal: breed for an inbred line that highlights as many strengths of the clone as possible.

If nothing else, it gives a target for genuine selection of inbred lines. Who, really, bothers with them otherwise these days? This idea, for all its flaws, at least gives incentive for developing unique IBLs, even if they never see the seed market themselves.

suzy, one day, one day. Any project that may or may not be on the burner is quite unlikely to see the light of day until things change, which being an inveterate optimist, I believe will surely happen.

c-ray, do you really think elites are not that exceptional? If you could create a situation where truly great cannabis plants could be detected, would you not think it would be where everyone is producing every possible combination of the gene pool? Just to play devil's advocate, hasn't the possible range of cannabis plants exponentially increased in the last, say, 40 years? Anything that is outstanding with our current completely scattershot "breeding techniques" is likely outstanding in an absolute sense, is it not? Granted, most lines produced with these techniques will immediately lose their luster....

country boy, book learning + practical experience is better than book learning OR practical experience by a long shot. Funny thing is, the vast majority of book learning in genetics is solely the result of practical experience with slight acknowledgement of Mendelian and quantitative genetics.

zif

[country boy]

zif-I only saw Vic's posts about his 'thoughts' on RSS, never any fields like Sam showed (each carefully labeled-but i guess those could have been photoshopped).

Phenotypes are much easier to select for than genotypes( have to test the out/back crosses)...i guess the question is whether 1 looks for the 'perfect' mother' or breeding stock...

On a completely different note: 1 can usually pick out the best pup in a litter by 8-10 weeks. it's an art and a science...
i bring to your attention the Hawiian monk seal-many were captured and moved to an atoll many miles away and are changing to fit their new environment. no longer 'hawiian' but close enough...
a nice read on evolution in action is, 'the Beak of the Finch' by J. Weiner.

Personal opinion: elites are for the gardener to decide: either the garden conforms to the gardener, or the gardener conforms to the garden...

[c-ray]

In the under dominance model disruptive selections are made between the extremes while under the over dominance model stabilising selections are made based on the fitness of the intermediate phenotype.

okay if I understand what you're saying...in an under dominance model we might select the original phenotypes in successive filial generations, for example in an original cross of thai females and afghani males we would continue to select thai dom females and afghani dom males in subsequent (f2, f3, etc.) generations to maximize chaos and heterozygosity, while stability would be less emphasized

and in the over dominance model we'd do the usual selection of intermediate phenotypes in subsequent generations (f2, f3, etc.) and chaos would be minimized, while homozygosity and stability would be emphasized

[c-ray]

c-ray, do you really think elites are not that exceptional? If you could create a situation where truly great cannabis plants could be detected, would you not think it would be where everyone is producing every possible combination of the gene pool? Just to play devil's advocate, hasn't the possible range of cannabis plants exponentially increased in the last, say, 40 years? Anything that is outstanding with our current completely scattershot "breeding techniques" is likely outstanding in an absolute sense, is it not? Granted, most lines produced with these techniques will immediately lose their luster....

country boy, book learning + practical experience is better than book learning OR practical experience by a long shot. Funny thing is, the vast majority of book learning in genetics is solely the result of practical experience with slight acknowledgement of Mendelian and quantitative genetics.

zif

I've seen some significant plants come out of heirloom lines that are superior to the diesel-kush clusterfuck poly elites of today, it is simply a matter of growing enough numbers. The indoor scene has had too much of an influence on the cannabis genepool and indoor bred plants are bred mostly to a fairly specific environment and are becoming dull imho. I have some fairly radical ideas about genetic improvements like for instance breeding plants outdoors full season to achieve their full genetic potential, and growning them in a living soil with a full and balanced spectrum of nutrients and minerals. Salt fertilizers are largely responsible for the decline of genetic vitality since their introduction in the 19th century. It used to be that seeds had good germ rates for decades, and the same crop could be grown in the same spot year after year. The crop rotation is a new invention. Plants have been overstimulated with chemicals and have lost their ego and genetic intelligence in the meantime. But I believe that all is not lost and that it is possible to recover seemingly lost genetic codes from the 'junk dna' provided the plants are grown in a manner that allows this 'healing' to occur.

[Elkslayer]

logic states that an ibl and/or 'true breeding' strain will grow significantly less vigorously if a significant amount of heterozygosity is removed in each generation of inbreeding
see the Effective breeding population FAQ (https://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/showthread.php?t=459) for more insight
for vigor.. start off with as many parents (males and females) in the initial crossing and use as many parents (males and females) as possible/necessary in subsequent F (filial) generations

C-Ray- I couldn't agree more. Most "breeder's" and hacks start their regimen's with "single's", meaning a single male/female. I will typically always use >3 males culled down from 25 seeds or so in most crosses, choosing the traits I deem to be important in my hacking. Another thing peeps fail to do is too take their original outcrossed male many weeks past the pollen dump or all the way through the flower process. This is another huge mistake as many who have grown a ton of strains know all too well how certain plants do certain things well late into flower.

Just my nonsensical theory on the art of hacking.

I won't even address my thoughts/concerns on using S1's in lengthy breeding regimen's, past a typical "dead-end" strain.

ES

[Cuzin_Dave]

Probably a good number of the F1's on todays market are the result of elite polyhybrid clone X Sensi Seeds Super Skunk Male. This tried and true formula almost never fails and pretty much encompasses the total sum and substance of some of the better breeding programmes out there today. The good thing too, is that only 2 plants are needed and many seeds will be produced.

[country boy]

Cuz-i don't get your statement that many F1's are a result of 'elite' polyhybrids/Super skunk...
wouldn't the results be 'all over the board' and by definition f2's?
Or do the super shunk genes show an overwhelming dominance in the crosses, in which case, it seem 1 would loose the 'elite' qualities of the mother?

cb

[Cuzin_Dave]

F1 in cannabis is quite different from F1 in the world of legal plants. F1 in this case would mean first filial cross. An F2 means that the cross is a result of inbreeding the F1 cross made from original P1 breeding lines. The F2 cross would mean that the lines have plants have some common heredity. Super Skunk will definitely work in making F1 crosses simply because it is a semi-stabilised variety , has good yields and often times it is fairly easy to pick a pre-potent male for breeding, making the selection process a whole lot easier. The elite qualities of the MUM plant would be difficult to replicate no matter what male(s) were used. “All over the board” phenotypes these days is pretty common even among the most expensive varieties of seeds.

[Schip]

The kind of breeding Vic talked about was RRS, or recurrent reciprocal selection. The 'reciprocal' refers to the fact that you're selecting within both parent lines. You can also do recurrent selection, as when you have one clone as one parent and you want to develop a seedline from it. One way to do this is to make several crosses to the clone, using different pollen sources, and then test grow about 30 of each cross. The crosses that perform well then get combined (well the rest of the seeds do) and the low-performing crosses get fed to the finches. At that point you have to choose to continue inbreeding, or to backcross to your clone, depending on how well the F1's represent the clone. In general, I believe that brother-sister crosses using multiple parents is a better path than backcrossing, but backcrossing can be valuable if the population strays to far away from the original clone phenotype. I think this is what DJ Short means when he says that he uses a single backcross at some point between the F4 and F6 generations, but he won't go into any more detail than that.

[Cuzin_Dave]

RRS in its practical application is used to improve the overall fitness levels and performance of the entire breeding population with the objective of long term improvement. It does not focus so much on outstanding individuals for immediate use i.e. elite clones. RRS involves the inter mating of specific sub populations within the genetic line. Suppose someone grows out 50 seeds and only finds maybe 1 worthwhile specimen while the other 49 are total spinach, then in all likelihood the overall population has a low fitness level. The 1 elite has immediate value naturally enough, but it begs the question of improving and how to improve the overall line. RRS takes the longer term view on genetic improvement.
The back cross between F4 and F6 is usually done to evaluate whether or not the line is true breeding for the selected trait in question.

[mojojojo]

"i've seen some significant plants come out of heirloom lines that are superior to the diesel-kush clusterfuck poly elites of today, it is simply a matter of growing enough numbers. The indoor scene has had too much of an influence on the cannabis genepool and indoor bred plants are bred mostly to a fairly specific environment and are becoming dull imho. I have some fairly radical ideas about genetic improvements like for instance breeding plants outdoors full season to achieve their full genetic potential, and growning them in a living soil with a full and balanced spectrum of nutrients and minerals."

c-ray man i couldnt disagree more it seems like we now have every flavour under the sun to choose from.
i have plenty of diversity among my mother list to keep me happy.
when i smoke bubba im amazed that herb can be so good.
i am breeding a "clusterfuck" now that i do just for fun called you guessed it "diesel-kush" lol but what im saying is that im happy with the state of things.
ya know. you are the man c-ray, wiser then me thats for sure.

my aproach on breeding an ibl from an elite would be to out cross the clone
find similar phenotypes in that outcross and inbreed. instead of backcrossing i think the use of s-1s would be benificial..

i really never tried to breed a clone into ibl status though just a hybrid that has given me two years of fun lookin through the genes, the main thging ive learned is mother nature is in control. peace guys thanks for the best thread ive seen for a spell jim

[Cuzin_Dave]

Mojo, I think you missed the point of the argument. There is a difference in genetics between variability and diversity. If someone crosses 2 poly hybrid parent plants there will definitely be a great of variability of phenotypes. When Ne equals 2 it is inevitable that many alleles will be eliminated due to sampling error (genetic drift). Making more hybrids from commercial Dutch hybrids really does not address the issue of genetic diversity very well. Many of the well known Dutch hybrids today are themselves the product of a very narrow genetic base of original American genetics. Genetic diversity has to do with a large and stable Ne, which is a near impossibility given the current legal environment.

[mre420]

Read most of this recently: http://www.sharebooks.ca/eBooks/ReturnToResistance.pdf
Very interesting view of the global food supply, use of pesticides, the mendelian approach and a re-emerging value of the quantitative biometricians' methods. Has a section about forming "breeding clubs" that could possibly translate to the medical community.

Even with a loss of diversity in the genetic population due to inbreeding, we may end up with one or more great allele combinations for aroma / taste / potency / thc-cannabinoid ratios, etc (assuming those are more single gene, "vertical" type traits), but would lose the "horizontal" type traits of parasite and pest resistance or environmental flexibility.

Assuming that traits such as yield, flower time, taste can be stabilized with more mendellian approaches, could this path maintain enough genetic diversity such that the breeder could subsequently select for parasite/pest resistance while maintaining the initial desired traits?

Have collected a bunch of strains, including some "IBL's" and am trying to work out the next steps in a grow&cross program. Didn't get multiple packs, but rather many many selections, some should be fairly stable and others such mixed up and ustable polyhybrid varieties that crossing them wouldn't really make sense (unpredictable progeny, including a share of duds, leading to the high opportunity cost of wasting a "grow slot" in the limited constraints of the indoor growspace).

I could use some help in finalizing the strategy (or radically changing course before too much is invested down a path). So far, the direction is to not keep moms or dads, just seed-clones waiting in line for the mother or father flowering chambers. To store seed and pollen for years. To harvesting mucho pollen (strain variety & quantity) - a modular pollen harvesting cabinet design is evolving in the minds eye. Have read a fair bit about the benefits of rapid drying and cold storage following collection, and am gathering the requisite desiccator equipment and supplies. Found a decent microscope on ebay, but its not a stereo scope, though it has a ccd camera attachment which could prove useful...

Well, better go do some work the new cabs or this will never happen!! BTW - harvesting a Sweet Tooth #3 microscrog either tonight or tomorrow - yeah!

[Indica Jones]

Elite clones are just that. A female pheno type clone that has a desirable trait. To breed with that clone would not ensure that same trait that was found to be desirable will reproduce itself.

[suzy cremecheese]

Even with a loss of diversity in the genetic population due to inbreeding, we may end up with one or more great allele combinations for aroma / taste / potency / thc-cannabinoid ratios, etc (assuming those are more single gene, "vertical" type traits), but would lose the "horizontal" type traits of parasite and pest resistance or environmental flexibility.


I think it would be a hell of an assumption to assume that those traits are monogenic/ vertical.

[Easyrasta]

damb
im glad i just grow
you guys figure out all that shit
when your done
Ill grow it
peace
Ez

[BravoC.D.]

i liked this topic. we shall see what the future holds for the scientific growers and amatuers. enjoy i say

[mre420]

I think it would be a hell of an assumption to assume that those traits are monogenic/ vertical.

...and as you've said elsewhere:
Are you sure that your hermies are the result of a single allele? Are you sure the expression of the trait is not impacted by environment? If you get some reasonable numbers to work with some statistical analysis, like a goodness of fit test, would help you determine if your results gel with your punnet squares... assuming your hypothesis is correct.

Guess it's a moot point, don't even envision any sort of "breeding" for some time. Now, just trying to get a new space built and learn to grow more, then make some crosses and see wheat (oops, meant what) interesting pops up. Do want the efforts put in now to be extensible though...

[suzy cremecheese]

Hey hope I didnt discourage you. We wont know unless somebody does the work.

[mre420]

Not at all Suzy, but thanks.
...and on topic: Have a pack of the Reservoir SD IBL. Is this just like the ECSD? Never having grown or puffed ECSD won't know, but am pretty confident whatever I've got is inbred (hrmm, maybe not yet?). Just hoping for some nice nuggs!

This presentation titled "Measures of Genetic Diversity" might be relevant to the thread:
http://www.generationcp.org/capcorner/pop_diversity_wksp/presentations/presentation_03.pdf

[vapor]

cray is part plant i know he slept on my couch....

[Cuzin_Dave]

At F1 one sees the full expression of the phenomena called heterosis. Hybrids seldom occur in nature and if they do selective and environmental pressures often work against them limiting their viability. Selection always works against the heterozygote whether the alleles be dominant or recessive. Invariably hybrids will drift back to one of the parental lines with the best adapted gene complexes for a given environment.

[tiedye420]

I know one old eliete That there is a male for...
IMHO all plants come from somewhere.....
I look at genotype more often than subspecies...
If you want bubba seeds, determine which qualities or flavors you wish to re-inforce....
And seek a landrace seedline which represents some of those traits....
may i mention mriko here? Damitt jim lets save our beloved cannabis.
Seek a male which exhibits a similar smell from a stemrub...If you can nail one parentage or genotype from landrace...Your set...
If your smart you will use four or five at least from a landrace kush similar in flavor......or at least part of the flavor.....
OP that old clone...
Grow out about 50 to 500. (secret I use is to select the seeds by median charecteristics- selecting 20-50 seeds from a thousand can be a huge shortcut in numbers you actually need to grow out...
Of course selecting the seeds which do not represent the landrace (save a few to compare) would swing it to the other Parentage of bubba.....
Also once you X it to a landrace and grow them out- you will have various phenotypes.. Then seek something resembling a stemrub of bubba for males....
Pretty soon your gonna get close...
IMHO continue to OP the 2nd generation removing any recessive phenotypes but leaving median and exceptional phenotypes intact (referr to MJB and mendellan ratio)
Third genration choose a male most representing a stemrub of bubba-in veg. Bubba must be in veg for comparison stemrubs....
BX this back to bubba for the fourth gen selective of the median male with closest stemrub to the eliete clone of bubba..
This should strengthen disease and mite resistance from the landrace if you OP correctly as well as bring resessive traits if your not careful they could be negative....
Im still not sure about this clone reversal stuff. I played with rodelization in the 90's and have negative works needing hermie removal stored away from it.
Feminised should not be used to breed with down the line hermie traits can come out..... If your not careful something as simple as one early flowering male used could introduce a "locked in hermaphrodism"..
I learned my lesson roght along with the dutch there.. I actually have a bit of dutch and blood in me...
Nothing against the dutch, but selective breeding of too many "above average phenotypes" is removing much needed genetic material from the entire cannabis genepool.....
I'm glad i save my seeds and tag em when i smoke something good... I think I'll pull out one landrace "bagseed" for every cycle this year...
Starting with my bagseed I call "mexi-chron" which actually tases a little like the strain "OB chronic" and I believe may be related to the NL seeds mark imported down south...If im right about this I could develop a disease resistant version of NL by mixing it with the old cali IBL NL I Got growing now...
What a timid creature she can be....Someone must have bred the extreme there again.....

NO FEAR BOY"S I WILL not breed the g-13 from the extreme, im breeding it from within.... I may breed another mutation decended strain to one or both of my mutants as a side project.
But The g-13 will be purebred and open pollenated, genepools will be strengthenend on my end..... I have two versions from the same generations.
I may mix both to increase the # of seed parents .
Im currently setting up to use five females to one male of pure g-13.
About the exact opposite of the last run, which i called the "five male mix".this session involved two females. It also produced a mutant "sport" which grew too slow for the sessions...
I have a friend with the mutant... I'm getting a piece of her soon.
I have another mutation, turning out to be a sport type.. No triploid or diploid. Just freaks, peanut sized calx's with buds inside, hairs protruding from stems and leaves. Inherent afghani type mutations..Visible trichrome development higher than median ....
I can increase the number of seedparents to 13, including both mutations...
I have 25 from the "five male mix" and I'll use 25 from the "five to one"
mix.... And do a OP of fifty, minus any hermies which may or may not appear..

NO-BODY I know even has the slightest idea what im doing, if they do they don't really seem to care.... NOone wants to talk about breeding on our level..
It's so great a feeling to fall into a whole thread of like minded individuals..
As your doing what they speak of? Nice, I been away from the thread for awhile, seems like we are making some good progress here...
No bickering guys everyones opinion is important, even my backwoods opinion BTW....
tiedye