Manipulation of Sex in Seeds

[Glass Man]

I've been getting high female ratios(80-100%) by germinating by the Moon phase. Virgo is the one to use for maximum females. Btw, this Saturday-early Monday 6th-8th the Moon is in Virgo. I'll be germing a half dozen strains this Saturday and will report on the results as they come in.

I'll be keeping a watch on this post too. Maybe the seed characteristics play a part too.

[c-ray]

sex is entirely genetic and determined at the time of pollination (conception)

[c-ray]

I'm not disputing the magnifying glass method at all, just the old wives tales about being able to manipulate the sex

[Glass Man]

Sex and manipulation go "hand in hand"!! Just like "greed and politics"!!

C-ray, next you'll be saying the Moon has nothing to do with my being crazy! I'd be highly insulted.

Really, I have been getting the ratios that I aim for using the Moon calendar. Normally I've used Virgo and I have gotten 80-100% females out of 10-15 seeds. I recently began wanting to have males for breeding so I used a moon phase which was supposed to give 50/50 M/F and of 10 seeds I ended up with half of each....I'll keep testing.

As I said, the 6th-8th is a Virgo Moon. Why don't a few of you give it a shot and germ some seeds on Sat or Sun (6 or 7th) and see for yourselves. If I'm right you'll get mostly females. If I'm wrong you'll get the pleasure of telling me to sit down and shutup about the damn Moon phases!! It's a win-win situation for you.

[c-ray]

how many seeds are you germinating at a time?

[plantbuilder]

holy subversiveness...

[Glass Man]

how many seeds are you germinating at a time?


I haven't decided, but I recently made seeds from a few various crosses. So, I have 100's of all of them besides the usual stash of a dozen or two of miscelanious ones. The issue is space to grow and keep track of all of them till they at least show their sex.

If I were to choose at least 2 of each strain of say, 10 batches would that prove anything? I guess it would if 80-100% of a broad mix like that end up female, right? That would only be 20 seeds total, but from 10 seperate batches. Maybe I should begin with 3-4 of each to ensure I get the full 20 seedlings, just to be safe? After they are 1-2" tall I'll toss the extras.

Does that sound like a sound plan? Seems simple enough for me to handle. Would it prove or disprove anything? I "think" it would. Somebody set me straight if I'm wrong. (But be nice, I'm sensative!!)

Later,

[c-ray]

sorry don't mean to sound like a grump but I've germinated hundreds at a time both at full moon, and new moon, never saw much deviation, for a reasonable statistical analysis one needs to work with hundreds imho...I've noticed other things about germinating around the moons, for instance germinating at full moon seems to favor above ground growth and germinating at new moon seems to favor better root growth, don't get me wrong I've been practicing biodynamic type horticulture for a decade so I tend to believe that there are notable trends in relation to moon phases, but when it comes to genetics I believe that when the pollen fuses with the ovule that sex is determined then and there and not after...I feel what you are seeing is a combination of luck and magick, if it works for you then just ignore me and we'll both be happy :smilesmok:

[Glass Man]

I'll try some both ways and take notes. Looking for a depression & rolling em' seems easy enough, much more convenient than waiting 28 days for the correct Moon phase.

Lrus007, I'm not going to fill this thread with BS. I think it's a cool thing to study and try out. I hope other growers will also give it a shot and post their findings. Of course the bummer is the wait of finding out our results, but I'll subscribe to this thread and report back with whatever I find. Also I'll begin a different thread for anything about the Moon stuff.

Now, let me get out my magnifying glass and get to work!

Peace,
GM

[meloyelo]

Lrus007, hope you'll forgive my butting in here. As your seeds are already marked my question won't affect your outcome.

but C-Ray
when it comes to genetics I believe that when the pollen fuses with the ovule that sex is determined then and there and not after
by that comment does that imply you do NOT think that enviormental factors like soil ph, temps, and other stress factors do not affect cannabis gender?
I realize it also sounds like a lot of hokum, but I've always felt that limiting the plants stress resulted in more females. My stats would point to that direction but I also understand there are others powers at work, like those that take place in the breeding labs.
-melo

[c-ray]

like I said, luck and magick
from a purely statistical point of view we need to grow hundreds or thousands to find anything conclusive

[meloyelo]

Ok just for someplace to put this I will drop this here. Not that I ever considered it gospel, but I have given it some credence at times. It is old info from Dutch Passion concerning gender influences.

From literature and our own findings it appears that the growth of a male or female plant from seed, except for the predisposition in the gender chromosomes, also depends on various environmental factors. The environmental factors that influence gender are:

a higher nitrogen concentration will give more females.
a higher potassium concentration will give more males.
a higher humidity will give more females.
a lower temperature will give more females.
more blue light will give more females.
Fewer hours of light will give more females.

[Glass Man]

Why do the numbers have to be so large if the resulting outcome percentages are high? I mean if 20 seeds are chosen from thousands at random and a certain method is used and that certain method yields a "relatively high" outcome, and that same method is repeated and the outcome is simular it would seem to "me" that something is affecting the outcome.

I guess what I'm trying to point out is that there are only 2 possible outcomes per individual(either male or female), rather than hundreds of combinations as with other breeding qualities.

Now I do realize determining the "true" cause, of the outcome, does require careful and thoughtful analysis.

C-ray, as you point out it could be predetermined. But, then again, maybe it isn't. Maybe it is caused by something which we don't fully understand, yet.

As with all the intricities of growing there are many things to keep us all wondering for as long as we garden. Life is magic. Don't you agree?

Peace,
GM

[c-ray]

there are at least 3 sexes, male, female and intersex (hermie)

sample size determines the 'margin of error', if you started with a bag of 500 red pills and 500 blue pills mixed randomly and drew out 20 at a time and put them in lots and kept drawing groups of 20 until all the pills were gone you would have a range of different percentages, ie some might be 3 blue/17 red (15% blue/85% red), or 6 red/14 blue (30% red/70% blue), etc.. but by choosing larger lots say 100 at a time there is a greater chance that you will get closer to 50% with each lot...

the larger the sample size the greater the chance of getting 50%, or if you started with 333 blue pills and 667 red pills, the larger the sample size the greater the odds of pulling 33% blue and 67% red pills with each lot..

to determine conclusively from a scientific manner whether the moon germination does effect sex change we would need to do something like this:
take a significant size random sample from a large population of seeds and use RAPD marker analysis to determine their sex-ratio...say for instance we took 1000 seeds and found 54% female, 42% male and 4% intersex, then we could germinate 500 seeds at the new moon, and 500 at the full moon, we wouldn't need to flower them just need the tissue to do more RAPD analysis, then if your moon hypothesis is correct we be able to see it with hard numbers

[Glass Man]

So if we take random samples(relative small, say 2) from multiple (just say 10) large unrelated groups of seeds and the results approach 100% females, that proves nothing? Even if we repeat the test and get simular results?

What about doing the same test, but choosing a "male moon phase", and getting close to 100% males repeatably?

Btw, I'd think hermies are rare enough that their prescence could be ignored without having much effect on the resulting data. I personally have never grown a hermie, although I have sprouted one 3 noded plant and one albino plant. No, I take that back, I did get a hermie once I think it was on my second grow. But, my point is they are pretty rare.

I understand your satistical explanation with the red/blue pill example. But if we are hitting marks close to 100%, rather than around 40/60 ish numbers I would think the results are telling us something valuable. Especially if we are able to achieve the opposite results also. I would see "control" being a much more likely cause than "chance".

But, "Magic" is still a more attractive label!! ;)

Peace,

[suzy cremecheese]

Cray know what hes talking about... statistically and genetically.

Like he said sex is determined at conception but it is determined at the conception of the pollen grain. A normal male carries both an X and a Y chromosome. At division it passes one of these on to a gamete along with half of the plants other chromosomes. This will determine the sex of the future plant.

From what I understand so far it isnt as simple as X and Y. There may be some intermediate alleles that cause genetic hermaphrodism and these may be responsible for the impact of environment on sex ratios. However these are the same plants that may throw out a male flower in week six of flower when you least expect it and mess with your crop. You want to avoid these genetics. For breeding and growing the 100% male and 100% female plants are more useful.

[c-ray]

the time to test your theory approaches with the may 12 full moon

[Lrus007]

what happened to the nifty moon calander link
think some 1 had it there sig please link it again thank's

[c-ray]

how's this work for you:
http://lunarium.co.uk/

[Lrus007]

great thank you

[Glass Man]

I've got a Moon Phase report.

I germed some Cambodian Flyers on March 18, it was a Scorpio Moon and I was supposed to get 70-80% females. A couple of days ago I was able to tell their sex and got 5 females and 4 males, that 55% females (if my math's right). Even if the 10th seed had lived and been female that still would have only been 60%.

I'll continue keeping records about my findings. The mass number of various seedlings were just planted outdoors yesterday, and ranged from 12-20" tall. There were 6 or 7 varieties in the mix so it will be interesting to see if the Virgo Moon gives me 80-90% females. I think the results will be quite meaningful either way.

Btw, seedlings really seem to rock outdoors, compared to clones. But, some of the clones are already packing on buds, so "it's all good"! ;)


Peace,
GM

[suzy cremecheese]

Well thats a good report there GM and It is excellent for your credibilty that you posted the true results inspite of the fact that they dont support your theory.

Like Cray said though unless we get some serious numbers... like hundreds at least it isnt really statistically relevant. Get us some big numbers and one of us will do the analysis to see if they deviate enough to consider your theory plausible.

Good work. Keep it up.