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c-ray
04-30-2006, 07:19 PM
Effective breeding population is one of the most basic parameters of population genetics. The idealised Ne is by definition infinitely large and diverse and fully represents all the potential genetic expressions in the population.

The actual calculation is fairly simple arithmetic and goes as follows:
Ne = 4 * (# of Males) * (# of Females) / (# of Males) + (# of Females)

For example a grower selects 1 male and 500 females for breeding. The effective breeding population is; (4) * (1) * (500) / (500+1) = 4. The effective breeding population can never be larger than the number of males selected for breeding. Another example 50 males 10 females Ne becomes 2000/60 or 33.33.

I read the article by DJ Short regarding his breeding of the famous Blueberry wherein he states that he only uses one male for his breeding selections. That might help explain why Blueberry is so resistant to breeding improvement. To quote, "Second, I select only one male from any single breeding project. Again, this simplifies things and avoids mistakes enormously. That male is generally selected at about the third week in the flowering cycle, unless it is a clone from another project".

By and large most cannabis breeders tend to ignore matters like effective breeding population when making their selections for males.

To expand on the basic concept of Ne one must consider how Ne effects the F statistic (Coefficient of Inbreeding).

So let's assume an NE of say 4. The decline in heterozygosity or rate of inbreeding at from the first generation would be: F1 = (1) / (2 * Ne) or 1 / (2 * 4) = .125.

With each subsequent generation the decline in heterozygosity is cumulative. Take generation F6
F6 = 1 - (1 - F1) ^ 6 = 1 - (1 - .125) ^ 6 = .551
By the 6th generation 55% of the genetic diversity will have been lost in the line. By the 12th generation 1 - (.87.5) ^ 12 = 80 % of the genetic diversity will have been eliminated.

The larger the Ne the lower the rate is the actual loss of diversity through inbreeding.

caddis
09-21-2006, 05:15 AM
How many cannabis breeders are selecting from populations of 100 or more?
My bet is not many.

Maybe Shantibaba?

Sativa Science
09-21-2006, 06:47 AM
You don't have to run em all at the same time. Run a batch, select keepers,stick em in clone table. Repeat process until the # of select individuals is met.All comes down to dedication,I reckon. Now if your definition of breeder is someone who pimps seeds on the net, then I agree.Hell most of them are lucky to select from a ten pack.

Cuzin_Dave
09-21-2006, 07:14 AM
You are so correct Sativa Science. A conscientious breeder could easily spend 5 -10 years on the F2's alone.

c-ray
09-21-2006, 07:26 AM
so true..

Alaska
09-21-2006, 10:01 AM
Thanks c-ray and cuzin_dave

A

mace
09-21-2006, 01:15 PM
since the effective breeding population is so important and a quality sign for a given strain, wouldn't you expect that breeders would supply this info when advertising their product?

suzy cremecheese
09-21-2006, 10:06 PM
since the effective breeding population is so important and a quality sign for a given strain, wouldn't you expect that breeders would supply this info when advertising their product?

I imagine a good portion of em dont even know what the term means. That doesnt mean that they don't know population size is important. I'm sure there are some self taught breeders out there that know that larger populations make for a real breeding program. However I'm afraid there are many that found crossing 1 male and 3 females results in $ on the web.

Marvin Martian
09-21-2006, 10:52 PM
However I'm afraid there are many that found crossing 1 male and 3 females results in $ on the web.

Suzy-

We are in agreement, for the most part. However, there are those, too, who continue to do things they way they always did things and continue to get the same basic result, whether good, bad, or indifferent. I don't believe they are all just doing so because they are money hungry. Sometimes it is difficult to teach an old dog new tricks.

The bottom line, in my eyes, is that those who adapt and integrate 'new' information into their breeding strategies and those who are learning some of these more "uncommon" but sound practices will be the breeders of the future and will find more breeding success, as a rule.

There are few people around, yourself and Cuzin Dave included, who have attempted to stress the importance of not using strictly a one on one breeding strategy. It still amazes me how some refuse to see the "error in their ways." Not to insult anyone in particular, but sometimes watching some people and hearing them strategize is like being in an impoverished country watching the kids play baseball using a doll head and a broomstick. If the star of the team actually had the proper tools of the trade; baseball, bat and glove, are the possibilities not unlimited?

MM

nugs
09-22-2006, 06:32 AM
You don't have to run em all at the same time. Run a batch, select keepers,stick em in clone table. Repeat process until the # of select individuals is met.All comes down to dedication,I reckon. Now if your definition of breeder is someone who pimps seeds on the net, then I agree.Hell most of them are lucky to select from a ten pack.

exactly, once you have enough finalists from each batch then you can run all those together and compare even more for further selection. maybe a few of each one with a different medium/nutrient schedule to see if they react better or worse.

Cuzin_Dave
09-22-2006, 09:09 AM
It should be noted that there is an actual difference between the census population and Ne. One could have a much larger available population and a very small Ne, since only one single male might be selected.

c-ray
09-22-2006, 12:26 PM
The larger the Ne the lower the rate is the actual loss of diversity through inbreeding.

just wanted to highlight that again in case anyone missed it and am thinking out loud that in a project that requires some heavy duty culling, that perhaps there should be more culling in the early generations and less culling in later generations, until a point has been reached when we see no reason to cull further.. I am thinking of applying diminishing culls specifically to a fast outdoor polyhybrid (inbreeding) project I am working on where there is quite a variation in the F2s (from what I have seen) and I am thinking of splitting them into 4 groups, group A autoflowers, group B fruity kushys, group C longer flowering taller fruitys, and group D everything else... the ratios are something like 2:1:1:10... I'm thinking I'll gang bang all members of each group with exception of group D the motley crew, which can get flowered watching for potential interesting specimens that can be revegged, or pollen saved... with the idea that there will be multiple runs from the same F2 starting pool, and with each successive run I will have increasing knowledge of what it is I am looking for, and starting with the second run of F2s I can also grow some F3s to see the results of the the previous run selections, and hopefully apply that knowledge to the next runs

Alaska
09-22-2006, 03:51 PM
just fyi, you all started a day long read on population genetics.

You guys know about google books? Free full texts online

A

c-ray
09-22-2006, 05:26 PM
c'mon alaska hook a brother up

Marvin Martian
09-22-2006, 05:29 PM
No doubt, spill the beans. :p

MM