Mycorrhizal Associates

[c-ray]

these are fungi that grow on and in symbiosis with tree roots
here's a great chart:
http://www.hortsorb.com/Ectomycorrhizal_Fungi_Associates.asp

so it is possible to innoculate these trees with particular fungi at the time of planting and possibly later though I don't know how easy it is to innoculate an established tree

[gojo]

Hey c-ray,

(i'm feeling a bit better, thanks :up:)

nice link!...I wonder if there is one of those for hemp (Cannabis Sativa L.)? I wonder if they tested the tress with diff myco's or they just looked at what myco's are naturally present in the natural habitabat of the speicific tree?

Anyway, here's another one on the same site:
Plant Species by Mycorrhizea Type (http://www.horticulturalalliance.com/Plant_Species_and_Type_of_Mycorrhizae.asp)



though I don't know how easy it is to innoculate an established tree

use a 1/8-1/4" (or larger if needed) dowel to poke a hole or two into the tree's root zone. Then pour 1-2tsp of myco inoculant into hole. You can then close the hole and soil moisture will activate the myco's OR you can pour a bit of water into hole (with yucca extract to help moisten the spores) and close the hole.



Later!

[c-ray]

yes that would inoculate a section of roots closest in proximity to where the myco was dropped...which is okay but as I am reading if one wants to inoculate a tree with one of the edible mushrooms like black piergod truffles, white oregon truffles, pine mushrooms, chanterelles, porcini, etc then it is important to inoculate before planting to get good coverage of the roots, which is important especially with truffles species as they might have to compete with natural/local myco species

[c-ray]

from http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=16594070
Document title
The arbuscular mycorrhizal fungus Glomus mosseae induces growth and metal accumulation changes in Cannabis sativa L

Abstract
The effect of arbuscular mycorrhiza on heavy metal uptake and translocation was investigated in Cannabis sativa. Hemp was grown in the presence and absence of 100 μg g-1 Cd and Ni and 300 μg g-1 Cr(VI), and inoculated or not with the arbuscular mycorrhizal fungus Glomus mosseae. In our experimental condition, hemp growth was reduced in inoculated plants and the reduction was related to the degree of mycorrhization. The percentage of mycorrhizal colonisation was 42% and 9% in plants grown in non-contaminated and contaminated soil, suggesting a significant negative effect of high metal concentrations on plant infection by G. mosseae. Soil pH, metal bioavailability and plant metal uptake were not influenced by mycorrhization. The organ metal concentrations were not statistically different between inoculated and non-inoculated plants, apart from Ni which concentration was significantly higher in stem and leaf of inoculated plants grown in contaminated soil. The distribution of absorbed metals inside plant was related to the soil heavy metal concentrations: in plant grown in non-contaminated soil the greater part of absorbed Cr and Ni was found in shoots and no significant difference was determined between inoculated and non-inoculated plants. On the contrary, plants grown in artificially contaminated soil accumulated most metal in root organ. In this soil, mycorrhization significantly enhanced the translocation of all the three metals from root to shoot. The possibility to increase metal accumulation in shoot is very interesting for phytoextraction purpose, since most high producing biomass plants, such as non-mycorrhized hemp, retain most heavy metals in roots, limiting their application.

[c-ray]

this paper has a reference to cannabis, if someone has a free pass they should check it out for us -> http://www.springerlink.com/content/f7l4273546347435/

[gojo]

one wants to inoculate a tree
I will PM you the info of a person who will know the answer, you can call him...I dont' know the answer.


funny timing:...I just happened to speak with a friend of mine who did work with mycorrhizal fungi and their associations to trembling aspen...What he told me:

Ecto mcyo fungi
Spores
ecto spores can reach the soil surface and can bloom (eg. truffle, 'shroom, etc).

Species/associations:
There are about 5000 labeled species of ecto fungi associated with about 2000 spices of higher plants and esp. conifer trees.

Physical function w/roots and shoots:
Ecto collect on the outside of and between roots and on the surface of the roots, not within the roots. This maybe why this species bloom above the ground. Eco form hyphe (sp?), between spore collections. These hyphe allow the ecto to transfer h20, nutrients and carbohydrates from the soil to itself to the endo mycos. Ecto myco's are very good at breaking down nutrients into plant usable form and collecting h20...both from the surrounding soil/soilless meida.



Endo myco fungi [aka "ambuscular myco fungi" and "vesicular-ambuscular mycorrhizas" (VAM)]:
Spores:
Endo are the oldest known mycorrhizal fungi, they are proven to have associations with the very first evolving land plants! The Endo spores are the most rootzone beneficial myco. My friend did work on the theory that a main reason the trembling aspen is one of the mostly widely distributed tress in North America (besides being a sucker) is due to it's strong association with many various endo mycos. Endo spores never reach the surface of the soil, they are only in the rootzone.

Species/associations:
There are about 200 labeled spices and they are associated with over 300,000 higher plants and tress world-wide!!! The reason there are only 200 labeled is they only exist under the soil so they are hard to find and identify.


Physical function w/roots and shoots:
Endo actually penetrate inside the root cells (cortex), where they bloom what are called "arbus cauls". The Enco spores also collect on the outside of the roots. The Endo then from bridges ("arbuscules") between the spores to transfer h20 and nutrients into the plant and carbohydrates out of the plant. Enho myco's are the most important type to enchance plant and root growth. They directly inject plant available nutrients and h20 into the cotexes. If I understand correctly, endo take nutrients and h20 from ecto AND the soil to be transfered into the cortex...they then take carbs from the plant to feed upon AND they transfer carbs to ecto so they can feed too. This is direct transfer is why plants do so well when grown with endo myco's (and ecto too)...though i don't think ecto and endo and dependent upon each other...



Mycorrhizal fungi:
(c-ray, I know you know this info but I'm posting it for completeness sake)

They from a symbiotic relationship with roots but they are plant species specific. Some ecto only trive with some plants/tress, the same goes for endo. That's why we need to know what ecto/endo Cannabis Sativa L. is associated with (I'll try to get into springerlink). By far the best option is get as wide a range of different endo/ecto speices as possible for use when associations are unknown.

The symbiotic relationship with plants roots is interesting...mycorrhizal fungi break down nutrients into plant usable from, collect h20 and excrete hormoes which are directly injected into the roots cortex to help the plant grow...in return the plant increases photosynthisis and thus carbohydrate production. The endo myco then absorb the plant's carbohyrdates from the plant's root cortex and transfers it to the rest of the spores...they feed upon carbohydrates. :farm:




Ok, that's all I have for now...

[gojo]

Hey bud,

I've been doing a lot of reaserach into mycorrhizeal fungi and I've got some inftersing info...the endo specie "Glomus mosseae" is associated with hemp...it will achieve a high infection rate (>40%) with strong sporation too :D. This species is in most all "myco" dry mixes. I would also suggest using "Glomus intraradicies" as it is assoctied with many different plants(also in most myco mixes). There are a few other plant useful speices but those two are very usefull. I'm going to read the PDF you posted soon :up:



Glomus mosseae
The arbuscular mycorrhizal fungus Glomus mosseae induces growth and metal accumulation changes in Cannabis sativa L. (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V74-4DXT7P1-N&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=1fe06f49f1a7ab9639d5535c043c001a)

The effect of arbuscular mycorrhiza on heavy metal uptake and translocation was investigated in Cannabis sativa. Hemp was grown in the presence and absence of 100 μg g−1 Cd and Ni and 300 μg g−1 Cr(VI), and inoculated or not with the arbuscular mycorrhizal fungus Glomus mosseae. In our experimental condition, hemp growth was reduced in inoculated plants and the reduction was related to the degree of mycorrhization. The percentage of mycorrhizal colonisation was 42% and 9% in plants grown in non-contaminated and contaminated soil, suggesting a significant negative effect of high metal concentrations on plant infection by G. mosseae.

Soil pH, metal bioavailability and plant metal uptake were not influenced by mycorrhization. The organ metal concentrations were not statistically different between inoculated and non-inoculated plants, apart from Ni which concentration was significantly higher in stem and leaf of inoculated plants grown in contaminated soil. The distribution of absorbed metals inside plant was related to the soil heavy metal concentrations: in plant grown in non-contaminated soil the greater part of absorbed Cr and Ni was found in shoots and no significant difference was determined between inoculated and non-inoculated plants. On the contrary, plants grown in artificially contaminated soil accumulated most metal in root organ. In this soil, mycorrhization significantly enhanced the translocation of all the three metals from root to shoot. The possibility to increase metal accumulation in shoot is very interesting for phytoextraction purpose, since most high producing biomass plants, such as non-mycorrhized hemp, retain most heavy metals in roots, limiting their application.



Glomus intraradicies
The most agronomically important mycorrhizal fungi found inNorth America are those in the endogonacea family, also referred to as VA Mycorrhizae (VAM); most notably Glomus intraradicies. Although there is host specificity(symboint) between different species, G.intraradicies will colonize plant roots in the absence of the preferred symbiont. This is particularly valuable in a sterile soil media, and/or where a earlier or rapid colonization benefit is desired.


A bad part about mycrorrhizeal fungi is they don't like phosphorus at all!!! :( High phosphorus will prevent infection and if teh host is infected it will reduce sporation. P levels from 5mg/liter (milligram per liter) to 40 mg/liter is good with around 20 mg/l being optimal. One mg/liter equals basically one PPM (for our purposes)...so over 40ppm of P is bad of mycorrhizeal and that low P is no good for cannabis, esp in flower.

On a positive note, if you inoculate the host with spores before you fertilzied with high P it gives the mycos time to reach good infection rates. Then you can use high P and it will effect the mcyo's much less. Myco's have been known to retain 20-30% sporation effectiveness and >40% of myco's coloniztion will remain when the the P is gradual and low at start. But, the stuides I've read have only tested up to about 100ppm of P...another consideration is P buildup in soil/soilless...

Some myco tests are in order ;)


All major elemental nutrients fall within the following preferred ranges in freshly prepared culture solution: magnesium 24 to 36 milligrams (mg) per litre (L) ; potassium 100 to 250 mg per L; calcium 80 to 120 mg per L; iron 2 to 15 mg per L; sulfur 32 to 150 mg per L; phosphorus 0.1 to 20 mg per L; nitrogen 1 to 250 mg per L. Preferred ranges of the latter two elements are phosphorus 0.5 to 12 mg per L and nitrogen 25 to 250 mg per L. More preferred phosphorus ranges are 4 to 12 mg per L.

There is some indication that higher phosphorus levels may be used when nitrogen levels are raised. Example 9 shows superior host plant growth and VAM spore' production at elevated phosphorus and nitrogen levels. Preferred levels of the other major nutrients are: potassium 150 mg per L; calcium 80 mg per L; magnesium 24 mg per L; sulfur 32 mg per L and iron 5 mg per L.

Trace element concentrations of the nutrient solution* were: boron 0.50 mg per L; manganese 0.10 mg per L; copper 0.01 mg per L; cobalt 0.01 mg per L; molybdenum 0.02 mg per L; and zinc 0.03 mg per L.

...and...

http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.9610/msg00351.html
ppm is mg per kg which is equivalent to molality (if you divide mg by molecular weight). mg/L is equivalent to molarity when you divide mg by molecular weight. In dilute solutions, molarity and molality are essentially equal ... for the company that we keep anyways.

Therefore, for our purposes ppm = mg/L.

Dave





On a side note:
myco's will thrive in hydro (P waring not withstanding) and will infect the host roots very quickly,then they start to release spores into the water...spores can be collected without disturbing the cultures when the nutrients are replaced. As the tanks are drained the water can be filtered through a 15-45 micrometer (um) sieve...though this usually done in a myco breeding facitlity and uses specific host plants like Zea maze, etc (not cannabis). This will collect all of the spores and they can be stored (under appropriate conditions or freeze dry) for later use as inoculum (for cannabis ;) ) I've only read about ebb/flow system to harvest spores, though other hydro should be fine. I intend to culture a fungi consortium (wild and isolated) via. a hybrid of this method and add the fresh spores to my ACT before I water it on the plants ;) ...though not untill this winter (at the soonest).


An interesting experiment I was thinking about is to put a few different variates of male and female cannabis, hemp and rudaralis (sp?) outside in nice, old, natural soil. After the season is over I could culture the roots and isolate the myco fungi for identification. Then we'd know for sure what the naturally associated myco is for cannabis...as long as the soil contains a natural amount of myco's, it should if it's old and natural. Too bad the soil around here is not high in myco fungi...I'm thinking of doing this where trembling aspen grow naturally (or conifers).

HTH (and makes sense!) :D

[c-ray]

myco doesn't like high soluble P, but it does liberate P from rocks in the soil...probably it is similar to rhyzobium which makes lots of N at the roots of legumes but only if there is low N in the soil

grasses are used to grow myco as they are the best colonizers
so grasses that put out lots of root mass like corn and ginger are great myco hosts

[gojo]

Hey,

myco doesn't like high soluble P,

Yes, that's true but in my understanding (I could've misread or misunderstood) myco's don't like high levels of some other organic substances either (ex gunao and bone meal) due to how quickly the P becomes available.




but it does liberate P from rocks in the soil...

Interestinly, I found some info a few weeks back on this topic...but as almost no one uses rock phosphorus for P I didn't think it too relevent....I can happily say i was wrong :) :

The role of rock-phosphate-solubilizing fungi and vesicular–arbusular-mycorrhiza (VAM) in growth of wheat plants fertilized with rock phosphate (http://www.springerlink.com/content/u3x643q8m5260030/)


Abstract
A total of 36 fungal species isolated from soil were tested for their ability to solubilize rock phosphate (RP) in agar plates. Most of these fungi were non-rock phosphate solubilizers, but two isolates, Aspergillus niger and Penicillium citrinum, had high activity. Liquid culture experiments revealed that both fungi caused a remarkable drop in pH of culture media and solubilized considerable amounts of phosphate. The effects on wheat of inoculation with vesicular–arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi and rock-phosphate-solubilizing fungi and fertilization with rock phosphate were studied in sterilized pot soils, nonsterilized pot trials and in field plot soils. Rock phosphate fertilization and inoculation with Glomus constrictum and rock-phosphate-solubilizing fungi (A. niger and P. citrinum) significantly increased dry matter yield of wheat plants under all experimental conditions. However, the effect was more evident in non- sterilized pot soils and in the field than in sterilized pots. Rock phosphate had no significant effect on the total phosphorus content of plants grown under pot conditions but it was significantly increased in field plots; the effect of inoculation with fungi (G. constrictum, A. niger and P. citrinum) on plant phosphorus was closely related to this in dry matter production. The greatest positive effect on growth and phosphorus contents of wheat plants was recorded in the treatments that received rock phosphate and were inoculated with a mixed inoculum of the three microorganisms used, followed by dual inoculation treatments of G. constrictum plus either A. niger or P. citrinum.


(I've got links to spore banks where you can order the RPS if you want those fungi, I've got links to sources of isolated myco's too...)




probably it is similar to rhyzobium which makes lots of N at the roots of legumes but only if there is low N in the soil

Do you mean in terms of P and myco's? I don't really understand what your conveying.


Here's some more good links that are real technical so I think you'll really dig them :up:


This is a collection of scientific abstracts related to the colonization of plant roots by VAM fungi in a hydroponics environment. (http://www.tandjenterprises.com/MR-Hydroponics.htm) (lots of specific info on P and myco's)


And check out this patent application for lots of great and indepth info on the cultivation of myco's, their food sources, sporations, which symbiotic host should be grown when cultivating isolated mycos, etc, etc. THere is a good bit of info on P solubization and myco's. It's a long writeup but it an amazing read, there is a 58 page PDF attacthed with pics and exta info too...

PRODUCTION OF MYCORRHIZAL INOCULUM BY STATIC CULTURE HYDROPONICS (http://www.wipo.int/pctdb/en/wo.jsp?IA=WO1991001082&WO=1991001082&DISPLAY=DESC)

[c-ray]

rhyzobium creates less nodules (less N) when there is N already available in the soil...the more N in the soil the less nodules it creates

[shadowlord]

You guys sure know your subject! You've probably forgotten more about Mychorrhizae than I have ever known.

[Microbeman]

Hey bud,

I've been doing a lot of reaserach into mycorrhizeal fungi and I've got some inftersing info...the endo specie "Glomus mosseae" is associated with hemp...it will achieve a high infection rate (>40%) with strong sporation too :D. This species is in most all "myco" dry mixes. I would also suggest using "Glomus intraradicies" as it is assoctied with many different plants(also in most myco mixes). There are a few other plant useful speices but those two are very usefull. I'm going to read the PDF you posted soon :up:



Glomus mosseae
The arbuscular mycorrhizal fungus Glomus mosseae induces growth and metal accumulation changes in Cannabis sativa L. (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6V74-4DXT7P1-N&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=1fe06f49f1a7ab9639d5535c043c001a)




Glomus intraradicies



A bad part about mycrorrhizeal fungi is they don't like phosphorus at all!!! :( High phosphorus will prevent infection and if teh host is infected it will reduce sporation. P levels from 5mg/liter (milligram per liter) to 40 mg/liter is good with around 20 mg/l being optimal. One mg/liter equals basically one PPM (for our purposes)...so over 40ppm of P is bad of mycorrhizeal and that low P is no good for cannabis, esp in flower.

On a positive note, if you inoculate the host with spores before you fertilzied with high P it gives the mycos time to reach good infection rates. Then you can use high P and it will effect the mcyo's much less. Myco's have been known to retain 20-30% sporation effectiveness and >40% of myco's coloniztion will remain when the the P is gradual and low at start. But, the stuides I've read have only tested up to about 100ppm of P...another consideration is P buildup in soil/soilless...

Some myco tests are in order ;)



...and...

http://fins.actwin.com/aquatic-plants/month.9610/msg00351.html





On a side note:
myco's will thrive in hydro (P waring not withstanding) and will infect the host roots very quickly,then they start to release spores into the water...spores can be collected without disturbing the cultures when the nutrients are replaced. As the tanks are drained the water can be filtered through a 15-45 micrometer (um) sieve...though this usually done in a myco breeding facitlity and uses specific host plants like Zea maze, etc (not cannabis). This will collect all of the spores and they can be stored (under appropriate conditions or freeze dry) for later use as inoculum (for cannabis ;) ) I've only read about ebb/flow system to harvest spores, though other hydro should be fine. I intend to culture a fungi consortium (wild and isolated) via. a hybrid of this method and add the fresh spores to my ACT before I water it on the plants ;) ...though not untill this winter (at the soonest).


An interesting experiment I was thinking about is to put a few different variates of male and female cannabis, hemp and rudaralis (sp?) outside in nice, old, natural soil. After the season is over I could culture the roots and isolate the myco fungi for identification. Then we'd know for sure what the naturally associated myco is for cannabis...as long as the soil contains a natural amount of myco's, it should if it's old and natural. Too bad the soil around here is not high in myco fungi...I'm thinking of doing this where trembling aspen grow naturally (or conifers).

HTH (and makes sense!) :D

Hi Gogo and C-Ray,

I'm new here but old. C-Ray knows me. I'd be interested in reading the scientific literature regarding Glomus intraradicies if you would be so kind to provide the citation. A word of caution. Even though I see that you are pretty good at providing links and citations for quotes be careful that you are consistent with this and careful to show what goes with what. Some athors may take exception.

On the subject of excessive P minimizing mycorrhizal growth, I believe it is inorganic P which is being referenced. Is that also your conclusion?

Tim Wilson

[purplehaze2]

your not kidding Shadowlord .wow that was a biology class.Dam! stoners are very informative poeple.

[Microbeman]

This may be of interest to you guys;

The following fungi species have been identified associated with Cannabis sativa

Micropeltopsis cannabis sp. nov. and Orbilia luteola (Roum.) comb. nov. are proposed. New Cannabis host associations include binucleate Rhizoctonia spp., Curvularia cymbopogonis, Sphaerotheca macularis, Glomus mosseae, and Pestalotiopsis sp. The geographic ranges of Pseudoperonspora cannabina, Septoria neocannabina and Fusarium graminearum are expanded


http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=41995

Follow Up Research; cursory

Micropeltopsis cannabis – Ascomycota phylum – pathogen; could not find more without extensive research

Orbilia luteola – Ascomycota phylum – could be beneficial – further research required

binucleate Rhizoctonia – Basidomycota so probably beneficial - appears to be an endophytic mycorrhizal type associated with orchids but some strains are pathogens
http://www.amjbot.org/cgi/content/full/89/11/1852

Curvularia cymbopogonis – Ascomycota phylum – described as pathogen – leaf spot

Sphaerotheca macularis – Ascomycota – otherwise known as powdery mildew – yuck

Glomus mosseae – Glomeramycota phylum – endophytic mycorrhizal – this is the main spore you want to inoculate roots for Cannabis plant species – ding ding ding!!

Pestalotiopsis sp. – is an endophytic fungi but apparently not micorrhizal – I found references to pathogenic function as well as benefit to the host plant – more research is required and I don’t have subscription authority to most journals

Pseudoperonospora cannabina – (correct spelling) – Oomycota phylum – almost always a pathogen – in this case downy mildew – yuck again

Septoria neocannabina – Ascomycota phylum – not a friend – causing yellow leaf spot

Fusarium graminearum – Ascomycota phylum – fusarium is a well known pathogen


Tim

[islandgrow]

http://www.fungi.com/mycogrow/index.html

Glomus mosseae species along with a few others, sounds like its worth a shot, also very interesting in hydro applications.

[gojo]

Hi Gogo and C-Ray,

I'm new here

:welcome:



but old.

You and me too! :old:




I'd be interested in reading the scientific literature regarding Glomus intraradicies if you would be so kind to provide the citation.

As far as a citation I'll have to direct you to the company from who's literature I quote that info about G.intraradices, i'ts called BioSci (http://biosci.com) and the product is called BioSci Ascend PA (http://biosci.com/ascendpa.htm), here's the label PDF (http://www.biosci.com/brochure/ASCPABro.pdf). While I could not find scientific data to backup these claims I am sure the company can provide these is you emailed them...I've heard good things about Biosci so i tend to believe them but they are a company sooo...it's always best to double check them...

I do happen to know someone who would know if that statement is accurate, I'll email him...but it may take a few weeks for him to respond.




A word of caution. Even though I see that you are pretty good at providing links and citations for quotes be careful that you are consistent with this and careful to show what goes with what. Some athors may take exception.

Ummm....OK...Thanks I guess? Just who's toes did I step on? :hmm: And are they upset I'm contradicting what they think/wrote or is plagiarism a concern? :confused2:




On the subject of excessive P minimizing mycorrhizal growth, I believe it is inorganic P which is being referenced. Is that also your conclusion?


No it is not. While inorganic P is referenced in most materials, organic (eg. slow/medium/fast release) sources of P also hinder mycorrhizal fungi. There is a great PDF by Linda Chalker-Scott titled "Add a Handful of Bone Meal to Planting Holes Before Installing Shrubs and Trees (http://www.puyallup.wsu.edu/~Linda%20Chalker-Scott/Horticultural%20Myths_files/Myths/Bonemeal.pdf)"; this PDF has great info on the relationship of roots to mycorrhizal in media with bone meal as the P source...very worthwhile reading IMVHO ;) (she has a great site debunking horticultural myths (https://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/showthread.php?t=4612); you can email her for references on the bone meal PDF)
High levels of phosphorus, from bone meal or other sources, will inhibit growth of mycorrhizal fungi.
I have also read other data regarding high organic P and VAM but I can't find those links right now, I'll look around...



Tim Wilson


Nice to meet you, I hope you stay around and share you knowledge! :up: :D

[gojo]

Oh yea...


I forgot to post this too, sorry. This info (http://invam.caf.wvu.edu/fungi/taxonomy/Glomaceae/Glomus/intraradices/intrarad.htm) may be part of the reason BioSci made those claims about G.intraradices
Many species reported in the literature as Glomus fasciculatum appear now to be synonymous with G. intraradices. One report (Biermann and Linderman, 1983) did not recognize the vesicle/spore relationship of G. intraradices and reported vesicles to be infective.

HTH

[gojo]

Hey IG,

http://www.fungi.com/mycogrow/index.html

Glomus mosseae species along with a few others, sounds like its worth a shot, also very interesting in hydro applications.

Here's a source for good info on mycorrhizal, etc: http://invam.caf.wvu.edu/cultures/refcult.htm

If anyone orders mycorrhizal and cultivates them please let us know and we can share...that way we won't buy the same strains...and some strains are in very limited quantities...

Also note that G.mosseae and many others are in most mycorrhizal products you can buy in hydro shops, look for strains that start with "Glomus" for endo's.

[gojo]

@ Tim:
Thanks for that info! Good post. I'm sure we and c-ray could have long talks about wild bacterial consortium cultivation and isolation-cultivation...along with VAM hydro setups, EM, BIM, etc, etc...

BTW, I'm turning my 3x3 ebb/flow try into a VAM colonization and collection tray...gonna rise a few different VAM's. That link I posted for the patent application spells everything out step-by-step :D :up:

[gojo]

hey all,


Just more reasons why you should be cultivating your own mycorrhizal...best would be to use cannabis as the host plant (cuz' were growing cannabis; otherwise zea mays, or hosts listed in this post (https://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/showpost.php?p=56610&postcount=14) would be better) for root culling for hyphae and spores...along with collection spores with a micro-micron screen...

http://www.hortsorb.com/DIEHARD_General_Discussion_On_Mycorrhizal_Inoculan ts.asp

Types of Commercial Mycorrhizal Inoculants

There are three types of mycorrhizal fungi inoculates commercially available endo, ecto and ericoid. Most are available in dry form. Ecto is in spore form and endo is available as propagules, i.e., spores, root fragments and hyphae. Endo in spore form alone is a poor inoculant if you want results within 6 weeks according to research that has been published. Research has shown that endo mycorrhizal inoculants with spores, root fragments and hyphae are superior to those containing only spores. Research shows that hyphal fragments are most infective, followed by mycorrhizal root fragments and then spores. Root fragments actually contain many spores and are better at protecting spores from adverse environmental conditions compared to spores alone. Ericoid is presently is in dry form.

Reasons why spores alone are dangerous for an inoculant:
1. Spores degrade over time, even when dried
2. For some species, spores are the only infective propagules and when they degrade the inocula are effectively dead.
3. For many species in Glomus, hyphae from root fragments can be up to 10X more infective than spores.
4. Root fragments, when dried, are not as susceptible to degradation as spores, especially in a formulation containing high organic matter.
5. Ergo (from 4 above), even if part of the inoculum degrades with storage, infective propagules still can be present for a longer period in a mixed inoculum formulation.

The reality of inoculum marketers today is that most are just that "marketers". Some sell a single strain of mycorrhiza mixed in with a carrier backed with all the claims thousands of research studies will support. Some sell liquids. Some sell powders. Some sell only one kind. Some sell tablets. Most sell "cocktails" containing a variety of organisms. Some have formulated for numbers. Some for results.

One company that has been in the industry for 10 years marketed a transplant product for trees and shrubs which contained no beneficial bacteria package. What were they thinking not to include such an obvious package. Most landscape materials are planted in disturbed soils. What logic is there in not including a bacteria package? Bacillus subtilla, for example, is an effective "mycorrhiza helper bacteria".

[gojo]

Oh ya,


I'm also looking into using the rock-phosphate-solubilizing fungi "Penicillium citrinum" along with the VAM G.constrictum (among other VAM). This seems to be key for complete break down of organic sources of P (not just rock-phosphate, I wonder how well they break down bone meal for example?). The reason I think it's important to make P as available as possible is due to the fact P storage/availability of the substrate is dictated by Anion Exchange Capacity which means P is more likely to flush out...

The role of rock-phosphate-solubilizing fungi and vesicular–arbusular-mycorrhiza (VAM) in growth of wheat plants fertilized with rock phosphate (http://www.springerlink.com/content/u3x643q8m5260030/)
Abstract
A total of 36 fungal species isolated from soil were tested for their ability to solubilize rock phosphate (RP) in agar plates. Most of these fungi were non-rock phosphate solubilizers, but two isolates, Aspergillus niger and Penicillium citrinum, had high activity. Liquid culture experiments revealed that both fungi caused a remarkable drop in pH of culture media and solubilized considerable amounts of phosphate. The effects on wheat of inoculation with vesicular–arbuscular mycorrhizal fungi and rock-phosphate-solubilizing fungi and fertilization with rock phosphate were studied in sterilized pot soils, nonsterilized pot trials and in field plot soils. Rock phosphate fertilization and inoculation with Glomus constrictum and rock-phosphate-solubilizing fungi (A. niger and P. citrinum) significantly increased dry matter yield of wheat plants under all experimental conditions. However, the effect was more evident in non- sterilized pot soils and in the field than in sterilized pots. Rock phosphate had no significant effect on the total phosphorus content of plants grown under pot conditions but it was significantly increased in field plots; the effect of inoculation with fungi (G. constrictum, A. niger and P. citrinum) on plant phosphorus was closely related to this in dry matter production. The greatest positive effect on growth and phosphorus contents of wheat plants was recorded in the treatments that received rock phosphate and were inoculated with a mixed inoculum of the three microorganisms used, followed by dual inoculation treatments of G. constrictum plus either A. niger or P. citrinum.


Not to mention rhyzobium, etc, as c-ray pointed out they can be rather easily cultivated too :farm:

[gojo]

Tim!...:cool2:...:clap:

Now I remember where I know your name from! I love you site!!! I really like the section on your issue with FSW, too bad things work out like that sometimes. And the section on pumps and damage to hyphae, very useful for a design concept I needed! Heck, I've also quoted the section on increasing fungi hyphae in worm castings via. oat flour (though I didn't know you were OK with cannabis so I made it an anonymous quote).

Really, I'm super impressed with your site and your knowledge...CW will be a better place if you stay around :up: I don't think most CW's know what it means to have you on board but I hope you stay, there is a lot of indepth and advanced topics I think you will like. Also, I have a few things on the horizon to post about as does c-ray I'm sure and many other members do exciting and innovative things too. I am not exaggerating when I say this site pushes the envelope of horticultural science and real-world application, mostly based upon solid scientific theories and concepts. There are some very informed members here...this site is like nothing I've seen before. There is so much useful information i get lost sometimes, and there are very few "kids" and very little "chatter" and "noise"...we don't have a lot of "hey great thread" posts and almost no arguments...I've learned a lot and shared a lot on this site...I hope you stay around and at the minimum lurk to toss in your opinion on occasion...

I'm actually building one of your brewers in the next few months (Im using a Duley's Own now), among other things you've suggested.

I am working on some things I think you'd be interested in and in the next few months I think we should talk via. email...if that's OK with you. C-ray knows some of what I'm talking about...hell, talk about somebody who knows his *hit, c-ray is the man!

P.S. Looking forward to checking out your DVD series!

P.S.S. You should turn on your PM box so we and others can converse with you in private...somethings shouldn't be discussed in public. :ninja:

:respect:

Later!

[Microbeman]

From Gojo;

"P.S.S. You should turn on your PM box so we and others can converse with you in private...somethings shouldn't be discussed in public."

Sorry, I have yet to get a handle on the isolated quotes in green. I would much rather receive private communication through email. I like everything in one spot because I belong to several forums. My email is on my website.

Thank you for your welcome.

Re: Linda CS; She also says that compost tea does not work so I take some of her info with a cautious mind but I'll read the info. If it is backed by solid evidence that's another story. I never use bone meal or blood. This is just an intuitive thing. I have no scientific information to validate this. I do use rock phosphate in soil, thermophilic compost (whenever I make it) and compost tea (CT). I'm very interested to ascertain if any plants have the capacity to uptake organic micro or macro nutrients unassisted microbially. I have only read vague references to this in papers and in the experiments (that I have read) concerning mycorrhiza inhibition by P, I have assumed they used soluble P. If you know of any papers which illustrate that roots can uptake organic molecules on their own please point me to them.

Re: the citations; I don't believe you stepped on anyone's toes, it's just a matter of giving credit.

Re: Me being okay with cannabis. I do not use it 'anymore'. I have a disability which becomes more painful with its use. I use opiates to manage pain. I developed and produced a medicinal Indica strain for the Vancouver compassion club. It was the highest seller for about 6 years until the authorities had a disagreement with my contract. I absolutely support its use medicinally. I've seen it stop 'tremors'; just like that!

Copying my brewer eh? Just don't sell them. I need to sell some to survive.

Thanks for the link.

Here is a monologue, I recently posted on my website;

"Organic Growing from a Microbial Perspective

To come to a rudimentary understanding of how organic or natural growing really works, one must cast off previous miscomprehensions from the chemical model, that when we fertilize or add compost or other organic matter, we are feeding plants. This is not the case. With true organics one is feeding the microorganisms in the soil which convert organic nutrients into a form which can be assimilated by the roots of plants. According to studies, there are only a very few plant species capable of absorbing only a very few organic nutrients. Most plants are only capable of absorbing inorganic nutrients which are made that way by microbes which live at the root to soil interface, the rhizosphere. So the idea which you have, that you are feeding your plants when they appear to need nitrogen and you feed an organic fertilizer deemed high in nitrogen is bogus. You are feeding the microbes which feed the plants.

Chemical fertilizers, mostly derived from petroleum are inorganic and can be absorbed by the roots of plants, however they are pollutants, which kill beneficial soil microbes, build up unused residues which run into the water table and, in my opinion, create harmful tissue changes in the plants which humans consume as food and medicine. In addition, I believe, the use of chemical fertilizers promote the incidence of plant pathogens like powdery mildew, erwinia, fusarium, pythium, etc. The grower can end up in a vicious spiraling downward fall as they use one chemical after another to control the effects brought on by the others.

The plant is no passive player in the natural growing game of survival but is the master conductor of this delicately balanced orchestra. The plant receives energy from above the soil in the form of light. This photosynthesis results in the plant’s internal production of carbon. It utilizes this carbon to create and reinforce tissue as it grows, so it is a very valuable commodity. As we all know the plant also requires a form of nitrogen (N) and other macro and micro-nutrients which it receives through the root system. As already stated this N must be in a form which the plant can directly uptake and use, usually a form of ammonia (N). Research has shown that when a plant needs to uptake N from the soil it sends out some of its precious carbon through it’s root system as a feed for bacteria and *archaea which live in the rhizosphere. [* Archaea are prokaryotes indiscernible from bacteria except through specialized testing; usually DNA] There are more complexities involved, such as, that certain plant types attract certain bacteria/archaea types but that is beyond the scope of this portrayal. When the bacterial/archaea population has increased in response to the carbons excreted by the roots, protozoa and bacterial feeding nematodes are attracted to the region, ‘hatch out’ from cysts and eggs respectively and in the case of protozoa multiply rapidly. Protozoa consist of flagellates, amoebae and ciliates. Some protozoa can multiply (divide) every 2 to 4 hours so their numbers can increase in short order. The protozoa and nematodes consume the bacteria/archaea and release as waste the ammonia (N) which the roots can then absorb. The multiplication rate of the bacteria/archaea increases in response to this predation and so on. This has been called the microbial loop. Protozoa are particularly good providers as their ‘digestive system’ only utilizes about 30% of the nutrients consumed meaning that roughly 70% is released as the waste which the roots crave. This factor, combined with their short generational time makes them real feeding machines. Undoubtedly there are micronutrients also processed and absorbed in this cycle. There are still many mysteries which research has yet to unfold or are not yet known to this author.
This is not the end. The concert continues. The bacteria/archaea also consume the ammonia (N) which is now bioavailable to them, so are in competition with the plant for these nutrients. Because of this, if there are no predators or insufficient numbers to consume the bacteria/archaea they could potentially lock up the N. When the plant is growing it is in a vegetative state and requires a large load of available nitrogen (N) so it is advantageous for it to continue this release of carbon and maintain a balance of bacteria/archaea and protozoa, while uptaking just the right amounts of nutrients. Don’t get me wrong. There are other players in this orchestra, either playing subdued roles or waiting their turn to play. There are higher order animals like mites, other microarthropods and worms. There are various forms of fungi, most of which are degraders but some of which are mycorrhizal. These all have roles in breaking down organic matter into a form which can then be mineralized by the plant’s bacteria/archaea team or delivered directly to the roots.

When the plant receives its signal from the upper world, above the soil, that it is time to switch gears and produce flowers and or fruit, its nutrient requirement changes. Although the mechanics are not well known to this author, studies indicate that the plant then increases the uptake of the ammonia (N) (bioavailable nitrogen) and reduces or stops excreting the carbon which feeds the bacteria/archaea. This effectively starves the bacteria/archaea which will react by dying or becoming dormant. This of course results in a similar reaction by the protozoa and bacterial feeding nematode population. The mycorrhizal fungi previously mentioned is then triggered into increased growth and production. Studies have indicated that the transference of bioavailable phosphorus and potassium to the roots occur mainly as a function of arbuscular mycorrhizal fungal hyphae in symbiotic relationship with the roots of the plant. The fungal hyphae (microscopic strands) grow right into the root cells and exchange nutrients. In exchange for carbon, once again released by the plant, the fungal hyphae delivers the required bioavailable nutrients to the root system. The fungal structure derives these nutrients from organic matter and food sources in the soil, some naturally processed by the other players as previously mentioned. It is my hypothesis that the form of carbon released to stimulate the mycorrhizal activity is of a varied molecular structure from that released to promote the bacteria/archaea population previously discussed, however I have no direct data to substantiate this. There are often different types of bacteria which accompany mycorrhizal fungi, adhering to the fungal hyphae in a symbiotic relationship. It is thought that these bacterial species function to exchange nutrients with the fungi as well as to protect the fungal hyphae from consumption by other microbes and even contribute to the protection of the plant from pathogenic fungi. There are other types of mycorrhizal fungi (ectomycorrhizal) which encapsulate roots rather than entering them but these are mostly associated with trees in the temperate and boreal regions.
So you see it is quite a complex arrangement which the plant conducts or controls and there are many facets which yet remain a mystery.

How to Apply This to Horticultural Activities

You say, okay so that’s how it works but how do I apply that to my growing situation? The answer is pretty simple really. You need to assure that there is organic matter, mostly in the form of composted plant and animal (manure) substances in or on your soil for a microbial inoculant and food source. Additionally you can add microbial foodstocks such as diluted fish hydrolysate and molasses and kelp meal, alfalfa meal and rock phosphate and other clay and rock powders if available. It is very good to include rock phosphate in your composting process if you are making your own. Rock phosphate in the compost adds a long lasting source of phosphorus for microbes to draw from. At time of planting it is highly beneficial to place some mycorrhizal fungi spores in the hole or on the root system. You can research the best strain of fungi for the plants you are growing and purchase the spores from a number of suppliers. [ http://www.mycorrhizae.com http://www.fungi.com ] You may also consider seeding companion edible mushrooms which provide a dual benefit of cycling nutrients to your plants and providing your breakfast. You may research this at the fungi.com site. The rest is governed by the plant, as previously discussed, assuming that all the necessary components are available from the organic matter and additional foodstocks provided. In my opinion manipulation of the pH is not a wise practice in natural growing unless dramatic acidity or alkalinity are measured. Soil with a healthy microbial population tends to self regulate the pH. One should disturb the soil as little as possible so as to leave fungal growth and strands intact. I realize this is challenging when growing in containers. I have run trials where wooden bins were constructed (2’x3’x1.5’ deep) where soil was successfully left intact after annual plants were harvested and replanted over several seasons. In between plantings composting worms were introduced to help consume the residual dead roots and plant matter. The worms were later trapped out. Compost tea was applied regularly to boost the soil microbial population. Over time there developed something of a miniature ecosystem complete with mushrooms, rove beetles and other beneficial bugs. If you are growing in smaller containers it is a good idea to provide a high volume of quality compost and or vermicompost at the onset.
Some people grow herbs and edible produce in containers organically. Because this has been practiced extensively utilizing chemical fertilizers, there is a period where growers have flushed the soil with copious amounts of water, the thought being that they are removing the harsh or harmful chemicals from the plant tissues. Too late! Those chemicals are already integrated into what you plan to put on your dinner plate or in your medicinal tea or pipe. At least that’s my opinion. If you have grown your produce naturally allowing the plant to be in control, this flushing routine is not only unnecessary but sort of stupid. Since plants are not able to uptake organic nutrients, what exactly would you be flushing away? You might instead be water logging your soil and roots.

Using Compost Tea

The use of compost tea (CT) is one of the best ways to inoculate your soil with the beneficial microbes you wish to have for optimum health of your plants. It is also good if your supply of compost or vermicompost is limited, as it multiplies those microbes, we have been discussing, by the millions. Remember the protozoa I mentioned earlier? Well you can brew an aerated compost tea specifically to have a large population of protozoa, usually mostly flagellates. If you have a good quality compost or vermicompost, protozoa will already be present, often in a resting cyst. If you have an efficient aerated brewer you can pretty much count on having a high flagellate (protozoa) population combined with bacteria/archaea and fungal hyphae (not mycorrhizal) at 42 to 44 hours brew time (65 to 72 degrees F). If you have a microscope you can examine the CT periodically to be sure that the microbial population is optimum. The use of aerated compost tea also provides the opportunity to manipulate microbial populations for specific purposes by using various recipes and brew times. You may wish to have high bacterial or fungal numbers for pathogen/disease control or have soil or plants that require a higher population of a microbial type. I have a lot to learn yet of fungal species which can grow in compost tea so until I have learned to identify the species occurring I’m cautious about some of the tricks employed to stimulate fungal hyphae growth in compost. Better to count on good quality compost and vermicompost with natural occurring quantities and species of fungi and use known mycorrhizal and mushroom spores in the soil.

As always, I am open to correction or refinement of what I have written.

Tim

Some References;

Protozoa and plant growth: 2003;
the microbial loop in soil revisited; Michael Bonkowski;
Rhizosphere Ecology Group, Institut für Zoologie, Technische Universität Darmstadt,
Darmstadt, Germany

Soil microbial loop and nutrient uptake by plants: 2006
a test using a coupled C:N model of plant–microbial interactions; Xavier Raynaud; Jean-Christophe Lata; Paul W. Leadley Universite´ Paris-Sud XI, France

The mycorrhiza helper bacteria revisited; 2007 P. Frey-Klett, J. Garbaye and M. Tarkka
Interactions Arbres/Micro-organismes, Champenoux, France;
UFZ-Department of Soil Ecology, Helmholz Centre for Environmental
Research, Halle, Germany

Modern Soil Microbiology; 2nd edition 2007 - Chapter 6 - Protozoa and Other Protista in Soil
Marianne Clarholm, Michael Bonkowski, and Bryan Griffiths"

Salutations,
Tim

PS. Do you have a microscope?

[Green Supreme]

Tim welcome to the site.This may not be the place to ask but you have me curious. Which strain did you come up with for the Compassion Club? Hope you enjoy the place. Peace GS

[Microbeman]

Tim welcome to the site.This may not be the place to ask but you have me curious. Which strain did you come up with for the Compassion Club? Hope you enjoy the place. Peace GS

Tims Indica.

[Green Supreme]

Thanks man gotta see if I can hunt that one down. Peace GS

[Microbeman]

Thanks man gotta see if I can hunt that one down. Peace GS

It is now defunct.

[Green Supreme]

You mean like gone forever? Peace GS

[Microbeman]

You mean like gone forever? Peace GS

Yup

[Green Supreme]

:Noooo:. Peace GS

[gojo]

Hey Tim,

OK, we can do this mailing-list style! :-)



On 06-15-08 Tim Wilson said:
>> On 06-15-08 Gojo said:
>> "P.S.S. You should turn on your PM box so we and others can converse with you in private...
>> somethings shouldn't be discussed in public."

> Sorry, I have yet to get a handle on the isolated quotes in green. I would much rather receive
> private communication through email. I like everything in one spot because I belong to several
> forums. My email is on my website.

OK, sound good. I'll look up your email, I don't want to post mine in public. I want to email
the info of a guy I think you'll want to contact. He's considered one of the top authorities
on myco's and he's very helpful (I've quoted the context of an email from him below).

A note on how I and others use the green quote space:
-If I add info directly above the quote then it's a reference to some document or other post, etc
-If I add info directly below the quote then I am responding to something posted in that same thread



> I belong to several forums.

If it's not asking too much (anonymity wise), would you mind posting or emailing me some of
those forums/sites which you think would be of interest to me/us?



> Re: Linda CS; She also says that compost tea does not work so I take some of her info with a
> cautious mind but I'll read the info.

I do not agree with everything she states either. But it's like everything I read, I try to have a
safe amount of skepticism, depending upon the source. In regards to bone meal I was only
using it as an example of myco's with high organic P.

Regarding her conclusion about ACT not having anti-microbial and anti-fungal benefit' I agree
with you (and many others), she is incorrect. I don't believe she carries out her own
experiments, I think she reads the journals, etc, and forums her opinion upon her understanding
of the data (as do I in most cases).



> If it is backed by solid evidence that's another story. I never use bone meal or blood.

I do not use bone meal either but as she stated other organic matter high in P also may/do have a
negative effect on VAM [proof goes here ;) ]. Best thing is to email her
and ask for her sources. I noticed she doesn't list them for that paper. Also, if your going
to contact the person I'll email you about it would be wise to ask him as he would know for
sure if organic sources of high P have a negative effect on mycos and VAM inparticular.




> This is just an intuitive thing. I have no scientific information to validate this.

I too am going by my gut (and fuzzy memory ;) ) but my gut leads me the other direction. For
scientific data see my pervious two responses.


> I do use rock phosphate in soil, thermophilic compost (whenever I make it) and compost tea (CT).

As do I, micronized though. Which is why I am very interested in RPSF (Rock Phosphate Solublizing Fungi) and endo's.


> I'm very interested to ascertain if any plants have the capacity to uptake organic micro or macro
> nutrients unassisted microbially. I have only read vague references to this in papers and in the
> experiments (that I have read) concerning mycorrhiza inhibition by P, I have assumed they used
> soluble P. If you know of any papers which illustrate that roots can uptake organic molecules
> on their own please point me to them.

"unassisted microbially"...hummm. Do you mean when they are NOT in the rhizosphere and NOT in direct contact
with the roots? I ask because I'm thinking about organic fertilizers (guano, etc) pre-solubiliziled by
microorganisms (anaerobic or aerobic) and drenched on a plant in a medium devoid of microbial life (ex. rock wool).
In this case the microbes in the drench and esp. myco's (if in the drench) wouldn't have time to connect or form
symbiotic relationship with host. So it seems the pre-solubilized organic nutrients are taken up directly by plant
roots? But I don't think that was what your referring to? It seems you mean no microbial activity at all?

As for sources of reference I have none, but again, I'll refer you to my upcoming email and the contact info contained therein.



> Re: Me being okay with cannabis. I do not use it 'anymore'. I have a disability which becomes
> more painful with its use.

Damn, sorry!



> I use opiates to manage pain.

Me too and I don't like them...but cannabis just isn't strong enough sometimes.



> I developed and produced a medicinal Indica strain for the Vancouver compassion club. It was the
> highest seller for about 6 years until the authorities had a disagreement with my contract. I absolutely
> support its use medicinally. I've seen it stop 'tremors'; just like that!

Excellent! Though, I'm with GreenSupream in mourning the passing of your "Tim'dica"...sounds great!



> Copying my brewer eh? Just don't sell them. I need to sell some to survive.

Just some design concepts and only for my little ol' self...dont' worry though, I've already referred
a few clients to your website.



> Here is a monologue, I recently posted on my website;
> "Organic Growing from a Microbial Perspective"
> [snip]
> As always, I am open to correction or refinement of what I have written.

Great write up! Very well thought out and presented, I really like how you cover the process A-Z.
However, I do have a few thoughts about the the CT section:

-It may be good to make note of aerobic, anaerobic and facultative bacteria, especially in regards to ACT.
For example, I add EM, SAEM and home-aide bokashi to my ACT becuase they all contain quite a few facultative
bacteria (notablly some spicies of PnSB) and some aerobic bacteria (ex. Bacillus subtilis, etc). The
main benifit of EM is that is can be purchased and used very easily by an average gardener and doesn't have
the storage issues of aerobic formulations. While those more advanced can create bokashi, AEM, FPE,
SAEM (specialized AEM), their own BIM consortium, protozoa tanks, ick tanks and other fun things. Another
good things about "Plus" EM cultures (with more PnSB) is the PnSB has a very high interation with
protozoa in terms of the microbial loop...especially because PnSB are so hardy, defensive and eat so much and
hence release a lot of N...

-It may also be good to make note that the ACT should be used within a few hours and at least in the same
day that the aeration/circulation stops.

-There also is an issue of compounds within ACT, EM, organic fertilizers, etc, etc which may disturb the
relationship between VAM and host. Below is an excerpt from an email conversation I had with the myco guy
I'll email you about. To put this email in context I asked him what affect ACT, EM and FPE may have on myco's
and VAM in particular:

"I don't believe that the additives you describe will hurt the symbiosis from forming, but it's hard to
tell for sure (it may be worth testing). There are chemical communication signals between the plant and
the mycorrhizal fungus that are necessary, and it's hard to know if this signalling is disrupted by
any added compounds."

Extra things I add to my ACT is yucca extract (microbial food, surfactant), Biozome (more aerobic microbes) and
I'm gonna start adding a bit of Bacillus subtilis var natto to my ACT...here's a good source of "natto spores" (starter):
http://www.gemcultures.com/soy_cultures.htm



> Some References;

Great, thanks!



RE: G.intraradices collonizing a substrate without host (re: BioSci Ascend AP)

After thinking about it for a day or two I may be able to shed a bit more scientific light on the claims
above. I had a corrospondence with the person whom I'll email you about, the myco guy, which in part
is relevent.

To setup the context, I am asking him about adding myco's via drench and weither it would be wise to add molassis
as a carbohydrate source[carbon] for the myco's while in stasis in the liquid and as a "starter" food
for them when in the substrate (humic, yucca and molassis is often included in myco packages for this very reason, though
it seems unnecessary according to the myco guy). The part I find important to this particular discussion is the bit
about "typically obligate biotrophic"...to me this means that on occasion obligate biotropicism is not required...

"Mycorrhizal fungi typically do not need any additional carbohydrate,
as they are typically obligate biotrophic, and will require the plant
to grow and reproduce. As long as a suitable plant is present, they
should grow and thrive."
Source to be given to you via. email




> Salutations,
> Tim

back at ya'! :-)



> PS. Do you have a microscope?

Yes, but I'll email you because I have a few questions and I don't want to ask in public on this board (anonymity issues)

Like I said, I'm looking forward to getting you DVD series!!!

HTH :D

[The Cannarchist]

Do not worry Tim, no one nicked your brewer

Lots of us experimented at the same time

Shame about the TI

[Hoverman]

Holy OVERWORD Batman!

I didnt see how myco was used anywhere in this string...

I put a pinch in a wet paper towel with any seeds. This has increased my germination rate from 60-80% to 90% average.

I put a pinch in the seed hole when transferring the seeds from paper towel to dirt.

I also put some DIRECTLY on the roots of any transplant. I went from 80-90% to 100% success when transplanting.

A warning should be given if you intend to buy Mycorrhizae. It should have 90-95% Myco and less than 5 % humates. I've bought some that was the reverse with 95% humates and 5% myco. It didn't work well at all.

GLUCK!

[c-ray]

Hoverman, what brand of myco do you use?

[Microbeman]

Gojo,

Re; The green boxes: What I meant is I don't know how to use them.

Re: Nutrient uptake without microbial assistance; Some claim that plants are capable of uptaking organic nutrients (molecules) directly without the interaction of microbes. I doubt this but keep an open mind. I'd be interested to see studies supporting nutrient uptake or substrates which are 'so-called' pre-solublized by microbes.

Re: EM; This is where I started, well actually I made my own fermentations leading to EM. I do not mix EM with ACT but that does not mean it should not be done. I put some 1:1 with ACT on a scope slide and the protozoa ruptured. I like to use the two in tandem. EM before ACT. I see EM more as a soil conditioner, (crudely stated) and ACT as a nutrient cycler (for plants). Yin & Yang.

Re: The intuition thing; I'm a little lost here. Do you mean you do use blood & bone?

My outline of compost tea use was not intended as a detailed essay. I do think that facultative anaerobes and phototrophic bacteria/archaea are involved and develop in my brews. One reason I use a natural coloured barrel and light. I'd be surprised if there was not Bacillus subtilis present in ACT.

Re: Opiates; God's gift to the human race. Absolutely fabulous medicine, especially taken as a tea made from the crushed seed pods, as the Afghanis, Patikistanis and Indians do. Manages pain, cures flu, prevents flu and colds. BUT; physically addictive.

I'll look forward to your email.

Cannarchist:

Re: The brewer; I don't mind people copying it for home use and I'm sure there are similar thought processes everywhere. I did spend a wad developing it and filing the US and Canadian patents.

I'll try posting something about my brewer in a couple of days and see if I get thrown off the forum for advertising.

Tim

[gojo]

Hey Tim



Re: Nutrient uptake without microbial assistance; Some claim that plants are capable of uptaking organic nutrients (molecules) directly without the interaction of microbes. I doubt this but keep an open mind.

I agree.


I made my own fermentations leading to EM.

That's something I'd like to talk about, BIM. Did you culture your own microbes from a wild consortium or did you orders different microbes and mix them? (though this thread probably isn't the best place, there is a BIM thread HERE (https://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/showthread.php?t=1787)that's nice...)



I put some 1:1 with ACT on a scope slide and the protozoa ruptured.

I've tried adding EM to the water I brew the tea in at 1:250 or 1:500, then I use the final CT/EM diluted in fertigation water. Protozoa are supposed to have a strong microbial loop with PnSB.


I see EM more as a soil conditioner, (crudely stated) and ACT as a nutrient cycler (for plants).

Yes I can see your train of thought, EM = zygomatic balance. But I have read info on PnSB used in Japan and other places to purify waste water (ex. to 'clean' hog waste water at a treatment plant)...this seems to fit well with breaking down organic materials. There are many microbes in common in EM and CT.


Re: The intuition thing; I'm a little lost here. Do you mean you do use blood & bone?
No I don't use bone or blood meals. I meant that I'm of the feeling that high levels of P from organic materials hinder myco's (like inorganic sources of P)...to what extent I'm not sure and I could be wrong. I didn't have time over the past few days to email you but I do it tonight i promise!


I do think that facultative anaerobes and phototrophic bacteria/archaea are involved and develop in my brews. One reason I use a natural coloured barrel and light.

I too like use of lighting sources (natural, CFL and LED Uv/Ir) depending upon what is being culturing or what being hindered...I want to play with a greenhouse and Uv/Ir lenses!


I'd be surprised if there was not Bacillus subtilis present in ACT.

Yes i believe in most cases it is present, but it's such a useful bacterium IMVHO it's worth adding more to the brew...though I haven't look at the difference through a microscope yet.

:D

[purplehaze2]

wow !

[gojo]

Holy OVERWORD Batman!

huh?

I didnt see how myco was used anywhere in this string...

Well this thread is about myco associations and advanced understanding of myco's...it's not a how-to thread. But as you've asked soooo nice :rolleyes: :chin:

In terms of adding them to an established plant see this post (https://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/showpost.php?p=72264&postcount=2).

It was also mentioned (I believe) that bare root inoculation is the best way to introduce myco's. If not I apologize...to add myco's you want to put a pinch into the hole before you place the transplant into it. A few things I like to do to increase the chance of good infection with dry spores:


Lightly water the myco's in the bottom of the hole before you transplant
Add a little yucca extract in your water, it helps moisten the dry powder/spores
Transplant slightly root bound so the roots are in direct contact with the myco's
No nurtients the first week or two (well, at least low levels of N and K with very low P)
Include ACT in fertigation water (and EM if you have it) to offer bacteria, some of which should be 'helpers' to the myco's.




I put a pinch in a wet paper towel with any seeds. This has increased my germination rate from 60-80% to 90% average.
I put a pinch in the seed hole when transferring the seeds from paper towel to dirt.

This is a waste of myco's...they need roots to become "active", grow and form hyphae, etc. Even in the best of situations with large roots it will take about 2 weeks for full infections. If there are not roots the myco's will just sit there...with one possible, though unlikely, and so far un-documented exception for one VAM species.


I also put some DIRECTLY on the roots of any transplant. I went from 80-90% to 100% success when transplanting.

good idea. :up: But I'm curious how you know your getting those high infection rates? Dry spores are known to be a rather poor inoculant.
See this post (https://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/showpost.php?p=73705&postcount=20)




A warning should be given if you intend to buy Mycorrhizae. It should have 90-95% Myco and less than 5 % humates. I've bought some that was the reverse with 95% humates and 5% myco. It didn't work well at all.

Ouch, that much humic would definitly hurt the myco's! And as small point of difference, myco's don't need humic (it's added as food), in most cases they don't use so-called "food". They need excretions from the roots, their symbiont host.



GLUCK!

You too :rasta: :farm:

[gojo]

Hey :)

these are fungi that grow on and in symbiosis with tree roots
here's a great chart:
http://www.hortsorb.com/Ectomycorrhizal_Fungi_Associates.asp


Just one small point here...that link is for Ectomycorrhizal not Endomycorrhizal. There is not AM association list I could find on that site...


For those who don't know, endo is synonymous with AM, they live in the root zone. Ecto's generally live at the soil's surface and above the surface in some instances. Ecto's also live between the roots of woody plants/trees. AM has a much higher action on plants than ecto's.

[gojo]

BTW,
I just noticed that "AM" is the current shorthand for "Arbuscular mycorrhizas" which are formerly known as vesicular-arbuscular mycorrhizas (VAM), all of which are Endomycorrhizas...confusing!

[purplehaze2]

gojo I checked both of those post and there bunk. you might want too run them again or maybe its my computer.It just tells me erorr.

[gojo]

nope,they work fine. Try clearing your cache and clicking on them again (I've seen issues loading a page cuz' of DNS issues...that is fixed via. command line "$ipconfig /flushdns" but I doubt that's your problem)

[Lungus]

PH2 it is likely your security that will not let you go to those posts because of the certificate error. You will have to override your firewall to trust the old CW site. I used to have to do it to enter the old CW cache with IE7 and now I just had to do it with Mozilla, it made it look like an error but you can override it.

[purplehaze2]

ok! I gotcha it was doing it to me on a bunch of post.I have time to fix it now,got the kids down what a day.

[gojo]

Hey all,

More info about AM, thought it's specific to Oz. But G.Intraradices should behave simarly in most soil/soilless mediums. My only concern is that they have more clay in there soil than would be in our mediums...

It seems like many of the experiment references are to experiments/reseach carried out by Swep (http://swep.com.au)(kinda live Soil Food Web, but it's in Oz)



Biological Farming: A Practical Guide (http://www.nuffield.com.au/report_f/2006/Catherine%20Harvey%202006%20report.pdf)(PDF)
Dr. Catherine J Harvey I visited a number of farms applying VAM to their seed crops. It can be made into solution and mixed with seed or trickled in with seeding in a clay carrier. Jill Clapperton said trials indicated the clay application to be more successful in VAM establishment. VAM is slow to reproduce; spores are produced in 9 months. VAM production is a complex process. Plant roots for healthy plants have 50% plus colonization of their roots with VAM.


New Edge Microbials are now commercially producing a VAM inoculant in Australia. One of the partners worked with CSIRO on VAM. Glomus Intraradices was isolated as the most general and infective VAM in Australian soils. VAM takes four to six weeks to establish in the roots before beginning nutrient exchange. It takes a minimum of six weeks or longer to set spores.



P.S. Here's some good info by the Swep people: "Using Bio-active Materials (https://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/showthread.php?t=4671)" [in CT/ACT]

[gojo]

@ MicrobeMan

Re: Organic materials with high P may hinder myco's

Here's a bit more light and research, this seems to back up Linda's research that high organic sources of P (bone meal, etc) do hinder myco's. The following testes were carried out by Swep (http://swep.com.au) (like Soil Food Web but in Oz):


Biological Farming: A Practical Guide (http://www.nuffield.com.au/report_f/2006/Catherine%20Harvey%202006%20report.pdf)(PDF)
Dr. Catherine J Harvey
VAM are very fragile and need living roots to grow and exist. Tillage, high levels of raw manure (possibly by causing high levels of phosphorus mobilization),high levels of phosphorus (optimum p level 32ppm.) all destroy or suppress VAM.
(The figure of 32ppm is very near the ideal level of P from the patent application I posted detailing the ebb/flow culture of AM [e.g. +/-30ppm])


-I wonder if composted manure, etc would have the same effect? Hell, many raw manures are phytotoxic anyway. But I think the important point here is the high P, not the raw manure. It seems to me any organic source of high P may have the same negative effect on myco's.

-I'm not totally sold that high organic P is bad for myco's but I do lean very heavily on that side of the fence.


Thoughts?
Later! :up:

[c-ray]

-I'm not totally sold that high organic P is bad for myco's but I do lean very heavily on that side of the fence.

maybe it's the soluble immediately available P that is roasting the mycos
ie bone meal, triple super phosphate, bat guano, ph down, etc

I am inclined to believe that this would not be a problem at all with rock phosphate as the phosphorus it contains has low solubility and is released over a very long time

I am also against using bone meal and blood meal because of where they come from but also because I have smoked weed that tasted like bone meal due to overuse of bone meal...

[gojo]

maybe it's the soluble immediately available P that is roasting the mycos
ie bone meal, triple super phosphate, bat guano, ph down, etc

I am inclined to believe that this would not be a problem at all with rock phosphate as the phosphorus it contains has low solubility and is released over a very long time

yea, makes sense to me. I gave MM the email address for the myco guy in Canada, the same one I gave you, so maybe we can get some soil answers if MM emails him. If not I'll email the myco guy in a few weeks and ask...

So what do you use for source of P? More than just RP I'd assume.

Off Topic:
I use micronized RP, I'm toying with the idea of trying to isolate RF solublizing bacteria and fungi (I've posted about one RPS fungi). The other day I read about how this 16year old Canadian kid isolated 2 bacteria species which digest plastic bags...he cultured and isolated them from soil in his back yard! It should be kind of easy to isolate the bacteria (if they exist in my samples) as the RP won't dissolve and should be easily measurable by weight...process of elimination. Then I try to culture the correct bacteria to high numbers and then see what they will do to some micronized RP! :up: I'm prolly gonna get this started next month...though it will take a while, I figure maybe 4-6 months...



I am also against using bone meal and blood meal because of where they come from but also because I have smoked weed that tasted like bone meal due to overuse of bone meal...

Me too...I wouldn't feed my plants animal by product, just like I won't feed my dog animal byproduct...esp one so cruel and disgusting bone and blood meal...I've seen meat processing plants on PETA. :(

[c-ray]

I'm currently using spanish river carbonatite, bat guano and fossil bone meal for P

[gojo]

Hey all,

I just wanted to post more info i found showing that is very likely that high organic P do hinder myco's. These tests/trails where carried out by Dr. Douds in unison with the Rodale Inst. which has a new section called "New Farm Research", and it's run by microbiologist Dr. David Douds :farm:

http://www.newfarm.org/depts/NFfield_trials/0404/mf_update.shtml
The different MF response may be attributable to the higher phosphorous levels in the controlled microbial compost, since MF populations are believed to be inhibited by high phosphorous conditions. The 2003 data will help researchers refine the MF inoculant production system so that it can be passed on to farmers.



...we are getting there...slowly...soon we may know for sure and then we can try to figure out what a "high organic P" means in terms of levels of P. If I remember right myco's can live (but not thrive, sporation may stall) to levels around +/-60ppm. By the time it hits +/-80ppm they myco's are not growing, I'm not sure what actually happens to them but I know it's not good.

The other question is what sources of organic matter hurt myco's? I think C-ray has it right, med-fast P releaser's may be the ones which hinder myo's, say 1-6 month release time frame [which matches the myoc's infection timetable] (ex. guano, manure, bone meal). The studies by Dr. Douds shows "controlled microbial compost" hindered myco's most likely do to the high levels of P.

I would like to know what is in Dr. Douds "controlled microbial compost" [aka "Luebke compost"] so we can see what else may hinder myoc's in terms of high P. This is a quick scroogle result for ingredients in :

Compost- The microbial way (http://www.localfoodworks.org/web/sa/saweb.nsf/d39dda83e1f3c019802570ad005b4516/68e4cbb7eada1a4880256f62004210ae!OpenDocument)
Farm yard manure (FYM), packhouse waste and old tomato plants are all suitable ingredients as is green waste from parks, and woodland maintenance waste....this basically means manure, kitchen/garden compost, leafs, yard scraps, etc, etc,

Thoughts?

[gojo]

...but again,

If we used fresh myco's inoculant (hyphea, spore, etc) and let them infect the roots for a few weeks without high amounts of P (under 35ppm) they will have a better chance of fast and good colonization. Supposedly they will still offer some benefit even if the level of P eventully gets of above 100ppm (as long as it's "pre-infected")...to what extent the myco's still function above 100ppm I don't know.

[gojo]

Hey C,

Well, I got the PDF from my University and it's definitely worth reading....

this paper has a reference to cannabis, if someone has a free pass they should check it out for us -> http://www.springerlink.com/content/f7l4273546347435/

I am quite surprised by my understanding of the findings in this study. According to the study cannabis is not highly active with endomycorrhizas and the biomass difference between cannabis grown with and without endomycorrhizas differs only a bit (growing with mycos offers more biomass). Not what I expected:


"Adaptive significance of endomycorrhizas for herbaceous plants"
Journal Russian Journal of Ecology
Volume 37, Number 1 / January, 2006
Monday, February 27, 2006

[excerpts]


In spite of the wide distribution of endomycorrhizas in herbaceous anthophytic plants, their adaptive importance is ambiguous. For example, both mycorrhizal and nonmycorrhizal plants were represented in the populations of some species. The proportion of nonmycorrhizal plants was 6.7% in cenopopulations of Cirsiumarvense and Tussilago farfara, 20.0% in Medicago lupulina, 33.3–37.5% in Tripleurospermum inodorum and Echium vulgare, and 68.4–73.3% in Cannabis sativa and Deschampsia caespitosa. However, nonmycorrhizal plants did not differ significantly from mycorrhizal plants in biomass (Fig. 1).

and


The level of mycorrhiza development in mycotrophic species varied significantly. By this criterion, the plants could be divided into three groups: weakly, moderately, and highly mycotrophic. There were relatively few weakly mycotrophic species (D < 1), only 10%: Androsace filiformisRetz., Cannabis sativa L., ...[long list of plants]...

HTH and hope your having a great day! :)

[gojo]

And this sentence REALLY took me by surprise:

For example, both mycorrhizal and nonmycorrhizal plants were represented in the populations of some species.

So some cannabis plants would be adapted (evolved) to have a symbiotic relationship with AM (aka endomycorrhizas) and some would not? The percent of "non-endomycorrhizas" plants in Cannabis Sativa L., is 68.4–73.3% !!!

I wonder if is this means that indica or sativa would be more 'active' with mycos? Or if certain landraces from say an area rich in conifer trees? Etc?


...Conifers tress are associated to G.mossae and conifer forest soils are known to be very rich and diverse in AM.