Calculating Nutrient profiles for Canna, GH and PBP

[Lucas]

A thread on nutrient recipes, and some reference links
also posted at http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=21119

Growing Greenhouse tomatoes
http://www.ces.ncsu.edu/depts/hort/greenhouse_veg/pdf/GrowingGHTomates.pdf

"The cation exchange capacity of the soil
When small quantities of inorganic salts, such as the soluble mineral
matter of soil and commercial fertilizers, are added to water they dissociate
into electrically charged units called ions. The positively charged ions
(cations) such as hydrogen (H+l, potassium (K+l, calcium (Ca2+l,
magnesium (Mg2+), ammonium (NH:), iron (Fez+), manganese (Mn2+1,
and zinc (Zn2+1 are absorbed mostly on the negatively charged surfaces of
the soil colloids (microscopic clay and humus particles) and exist only in
small quantities in the soil solution. Thus, the humus-clay colloids serve as
a storehouse for certain essential ions (cations). The negatively charged
ions (anions), such as nitrates (NO; 1, phosphates (HPO:?, sulfates WI-I,
and chlorides (Cl-), are found almost exclusively in the soil solution and can
therefore be leached away easily with overwatering. The roots and root
hairs are in intimate contact with the soil colloidal surfaces, which are
bathed in the soil solution, and therefore nutrient uptake can take place
either from the soil solution or directly from the colloidal surfaces (cation
exchange).

As plants absorb nutrients (ions) they exchange them for other ions.
For example, for the uptake of one potassium (K+) ion or one ammonium
(NH:) ion, one hydrogen (H+) ion is released into the soil solution or
directly into the soil colloids by the process of cation exchange. Similarly,
for the uptake of one calcium (Ca2+) or one magnesium (Mg2+) ion, two
hydrogen (H+) ions are released by the root. Thus, as the plant absorbs
these essential cations, the soil solution and the colloidal particles contain
more and more hydrogen (H+) ions, which explains why the removal of
cations (ammonium (NH ‘;I nitrogen is a good example) by crops tends to
make soils acidic, i.e., having a low pH. Also, as the plant absorbs essential
anions such as nitrates (NO ;1 and phosphates (HP0 4 ), the soil solution is
enriched with more and more hydroxyl groups (OH-1 and bicarbonates
(HCO; 1, which explains why the removal ofanions (nitrate (NO; 1 nitrogen
is a good example1 by crops tends to make soils alkaline, i.e., having a high
PH. "

The above article seems to suggest that K and Mg are stored in medium, whereas N and P are not. Maybe this leads to nutrient mixes like Canna Coco that are very low in K, and Mg, maybe because they accumulate in medium? But Canna Coco, and also Pure Blend Pro, are also very low in P, which the above article says leaches out rapidly. so I dont understand why those nutes are so low in P... maybe it has to do with their being designed for tap water, expecting the addition of pH down (Phosphoric acid), which adds P?

I was also looking for info on which nutrients are mobile within the plant, versus which ones are only stored in the medium and uptaken as needed (non mobile nutrients). I did not find that info yet, but invite others to point it out if you read the Greenhouse Tomato article.

Now for some heavy math based discussion of some popular nutrients

the following specs are in N-P-K-Mg format
canna aqua a plus b vega 6-3-8-1
Canna aqua a plus b flores 4-4-11-1.2
Canna Coco a plus b flores 5-5-3-1
Flora Nova Bloom 4-8-7-2
Flora Nova Grow 7-4-10-1.5
Flora Micro 5-0-1
Flora Bloom 0-5-4-1.5

from the above data, using pH's spreadsheet, http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/premixppm3b.zip
with weights checked, the following dosages produced the net elemental values for the following GH, Canna, and PBP formulas.. I strongly encourage folks to input the net weight of their nutrient bottles when using pH's premix spreadsheet. Thick products like FloraNova, especially benefit from this data, because it raises the net NPKMG calculations significantly.

note the Canna Coco Bloom recipe profile, it is about a 33% dilution of the 8ml GH Micro, plus 16 ml per gallon of GH Bloom formula.. (but with more Nitrogen).. Maybe medium based nutes are intentionally weak, so they accumulate in the pot?

8ml GH Micro 16 ml GH Bloom, is my guru pH's baseline bloom formula (pH is a person) derived from the Mel Frank targets, which suggest a 100-100-200-60 goal for NPKMG values in bloom Both GH Flora series nutes and the Flora Nova series, achieve Mel Franks targets without additives. Here is a link to Mel's specs http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/profiles.htm
pH's "Lucas Formula" values for 8ml micro, 16ml bloom
n 130
p 106
k 183
Mg 73

8 Flora Nova grow. Flora Nova is the one bottle solution to nutrients, note this mix is almost identical to Canna Aqua Vega, and GrowGreen's Nute Recipe
n 217
p 54
k 257
Mg 46

8 fnBloom
n 124
p 108
k 180
Mg 62

GH's baseline Flora Series, the 3 bottles, green purple and red, (different from Flora Nova series) veg formula
GH 15grow, 10micro, 5bloom
211
46
263
40

and GH 3 part bloom formula
GH 5grow, 10micro, 15bloom
159
92
219
66


canna coco 5.7a plus 5.7b (this is their baseline 3ml per liter formula), the highest dosage they recommend is 14ml/gal of canna coco A plus 14 of B). This mix (5.7ml/gal) is less than 1/3 strength of GH Flora Nova Bloom @8ml per gallon on the P, K and Mg..
N 87
P 30
K 43
Mg 17


canna coco 8/a and 8/b
121
42
60
24

Here is canna coco's strongest bloom mix, before the pk14 boost. it resembles the GH FloraNovaGrow recipe in its Nitrogen level
canna coco 14/a and 14/b
212
74
106
42

Here we see Canna Coco hitting hard with P and K
canna coco 14/a and 14/b plus 6ml pk13-14

212
177
317
42

pk 13-14 alone
0
103
212

here is Canna Aqua Vega at mfg rec of 3ml per litre each of A and B (very similar to GH's veg mix)
208
45
230
35

and here is Canna Aqua Flores at 3ml/litre each of A and B (it does not resemble GH bloom recipes, but is slightly similar to 15ml PBPBloom plus 5ml Cal Mag)
138
60
316
42

Here is PureBlendPro Bloom @ 15ml/gal
129
45
214
26

and PBPBloom 15, plus 5 cal mag (GrowGreen's formula) it resembles the grow formula of FloraNova @8ml, as well as GH's 15Grow, 10Micro, 5 bloom formulations, the most copied recipe Ive found. It seems competition only copied GH's veg formula for the most part..
Note also that GrowGreen has contributed a total nutes per crop spec, of 15ml per 40 gallons, or 20 ounces of PBPBloom per 1k crop.. a very interesting spec, resulting in about 5000 total ppm of N per croplife..
161
45
214
45

I dont know why Canna and PBP use such lower P and Mg levels than GH, nor do Canna and PBP hit Mel Franks 100-100-200-60 targets the way GH does. Yet folks with Canna and PBP produce excellent results, just like folks with GH do.

There does seem to be a difference in the design of Canna Aqua compared to Canna Coco, and PBP is similar to Canna Coco.. which leads me to think that DWC nute levels can be much higher than medium based nutes that expect accumulation to occur in the medium..

Bear in mind that when looking at Canna Aqua Flores, the K level is rather high, and this inhibits uptake of Mg, which is already a bit low imho.. I have heard repeatedly that Canna Aqua, AND Canna Coco produce Mg deficiency if not supplemented with Epsom at the rate of 1/4tsp per gallon...

I used to recommend PBP be supplemented with Epsom also, but Cal Mag is a better option, as it also adds N

I hope this thread helps to develop an archive of effective nutrient mixes. I can add analysis of other products and combinations if people want to know their profiles and are not spreadsheet savvy.

To do that, I need guaranteed analysis info from the label of the products being used, as well as the net weight of the bottled products.

for those not familiar with the origin of the "Lucas Formula", it was developed by pH in his Ebb/Flow system. I adopted his recipe for DWC, after learning about bubblers from Highgrade. I assumed that DWC and Ebb Flow could be fed at the same nutrient strength and ratios. It worked. I dont know why Canna and Botanicare (makers of Pure Blend) use such lower P and Mg levels.. Even if they are designed for medium, does not Ebb Flow have similar nute accumulations as medium based grows? Maybe not. Even though Ebb Flow does concentrate nutes in the rox between irrigations, they may be flushed out each time the flood comes, unlike the case with Canna Coco, or PBP in soilless mixes like Sunshine..

But to confound that possibility, here comes GrowGreen in ebb flow, using PBP, and its low P and Mg levels..

Its still a mystery to me why GrowGreen gets such good results from such low nute concentrations, whereas folks like ceteris paribus, also in ebb flow, get similar good results as GG, but using the Lucas Formula, with its higher P and Mg levels..

At this stage of my learning, out of all the possible systems and nutrients, Im inclined to recommend Ebb Flow with Flora Nova nutrients. I remain loyal to GH because of the simplicity of using no additives, and now also because the Nova series has everything in just one bottle.

The one reason to consider PBP in my opinion, is that folks think of it as "organic". To understand more of the details comprising the use of the term organic, check out this article on the GH website:
http://www.genhydro.com/genhydro_US/quicktips/OrganicHydroponicArticle.pdf

"Many attempts have been made to create the perfect organic-
hydroponic nutrient, but so far nothing matches the purified
mineral salts used in formulating hydroponic nutrient solutions.
We note that the European Economic Community (EEC) has
established the category of "mineral organic" for foods grown with
the required mineral nutrients to supplement an organic base of
nitrogen. We previously touched on the fact that United States
agricultural regulations are currently set and applied at the state
level but practically all states prohibit the use of refined ingredients
to cultivate “organic" crops; only mined minerals can be used.
Surprisingly, this precludes organic growers from using
pharmaceutical or food grade ingredients to formulate fertilizers."

I hope others will help me learn more about the reasons why non GH nutes are so low in P and Mg..

Lucas

[hydrorascal]

GG is successful because of paying extremely close attention to ALL aspects of growing. GG also studies alot.

An incredible thread for all the knowledge it imparts.

Proof once again that hydro is simple, WE complicate it.
Watch your PH, your temps and SEE what your plants are doing. Watching them will tell ya volumes on how your plants are doing. hr

[ViRedd]

Lucas ...

That was an extensive effort on your part. Very imformative, Bro. Thanks.

Vi

[mre420]

Lucas - this is VERY helpful. The Premix spreadsheet is great and helps explain a couple observations from last two soiless grows w/ PBP.

I'm not getting the same results for PBP Bloom / CalMag - what densitie are you using? Measured them to be 1.10 and 1.07 (instead of 1.3g/ml & 1.2 g/ml??).

Have been in soiless (ProMix) and just picked up some coco media. The tool is what I needed for the foray...

mre

[Lucas]

> Measured them to be 1.10 and 1.07 (instead of 1.3g/ml & 1.2 g/ml??).

I have 1.3 and 1.2 in my Spreadsheed, but I suspect your figures are more accurate..

I dont own any PBP or Cal Mag, as I much prefer GH nutes

I have never understood how some folks get such good yields from such low P and Mg levels

I think PBP is more appropriate to media based grows than to water culture, and look forward to hearing more about your success with Coco

there is considerable info on the Canna site about the P and K binding qualities of Coco, which comes preloaded with P and K to prevent lack of availability of those nutes to plants grown in Canna Coco..

I dont have any experience with Coco, other than to observe people with constant overwatering problems using it..

others may differ, but, I think Coco is very problematic, and I will be interested in your experience, compared to other soilless media that is more inert..

otoh, Coco has some Very beneficial qualities that promotes vigorous root growth, IF it is not overfed and overwatered..

as you probably already know from your soilless experience, nutes accumulate in medium over time..

feed lightly, and trust your ability not to overwater

Lucas

PS, I hope you will prove me wrong yet again, but I would venture that plants grown in Flora Nova will be MUCH healthier than those using PBP, especially if no Cal Mag is used... I remain totally unimpressed with PBP

[mre420]

Lucas,
Thanks for the reply and confirming your densities. I solved for your results and 1.3 and 1.2 were what I suspected. I measured actual density by taking a measuring cup (1/3c = 78.9ml) and weighing full liquid weight in grams on an accurate scale. BTW, I've set up the spreadsheet to calculate average density for all nutes, and when a value isn't known that get's filled in instead of a default of 1.0 (ave=1.08g/ml). There is some error, but I'm in a MUCH better place wrt knowing what I'm feeding. Canna Coco A & B measure 1.097 and 1.096, or 1.1ml/gal.

I found this resource useful:
http://agr.wa.gov/PestFert/Fertilizers/ProductDatabase.htm
It has Guaranteed Analsyis for most products (G.H., Earthjuice, Canna, Botanicare, etc.) so you can even fill out pH's spreadsheet for a product you are considering buying and determine if it produces a desirable recipe profile prior to purchase.

Next I intend to enter the actual TDS for 1ml/gal for each nute or additive so I can predict the *total* ppm of a recipe, not just the key elements in the guaranteed analysis. This will ensure the ammendments are kept in line.

BTW - the above profiles you list for GH aren't consistent wrt to using the "use weights" checkbox to account for nute density. Your 8M-16B Lucas formula above uses densities (result = 130-106-183-73) but the 3-Part example 10M-5B-15G uses a default density (to get 211-46-263-40) vs. a profile of (250-52-297-45) with weights "checked". If density is known then the latter is more accurate, right?

The "Reservoir Volume" box on the main Solution Mix sheet is convenient. I mix up a batch at a time for watering a soiless grow, and one pot often takes a container I have that is 74oz, or 0.6 gallons. I enter 0.6 in the Res Vol field, and it calculates the exact number of ml I need to mix for each component - nice and EASY!

Tried all the above w/ a plant early in veg, just transplanted. 4ml Rhizotonic, 8ml PBP Grow, 4ml PBP Soil, 4ml CalMag and 4ml EJ Microblast gave a profile of 115-36-132-36 with 70ppm Ca. With all the micro nutrients the final ppm was 1230@.5 which is a 2.4EC, so diluted 2/3 (ppm 850@.5). I know that's a bunch of parts, and WAY more complex that GH Flora Nova, but was playing with the Profiler and got carried away!

The above w/ a G.H. Flora Nova recipe might be:
4FNG-3FNB -> 114-50-145-34-40-80 (last two are Sulfur and Calcium for those following along).
or 6FNG-0FNB -> 120-30-142-26-34-69
That is a quick mix, will grab the Flora line at some point to try.

So for now, will work with the nutes on hand (GH 3pt Series, Canna line, PBP and EJ) using the tool, and when it comes time to buy more should have it dialed in and questions answered. This thread has helped to deal with open nute questions and doubts, so now focus can shift to environment, etc. You have NO IDEA what a hassle soils and nutes have been in the past!!! (maybe you do, but nonetheless, it's been quite a learning curve).

Will be ready to play with the Coco media in a few weeks, and will keep you posted. Have Hydroton and Perlite to mix w/ a couple brands of Coco. Was thinking of making a fairly open mix, like 50%-60% coco and then both Hydroton and the Perlite, 20-25% each.

Lucas, you've mentioned elsewhere that "I aim for 60-70ppm of Mg...". Can you speak to targets for other elements such as Sulfer, Calcium and Iron? The Botanicare Sweet has a TON of Sulfer (20% in the Guaranteed Analysis).

Thanks for a great thread & info. Go kindly, mre

[mre420]

Just saw this on a fert product site: Most fertilizers available today fail to provide your crops with the levels of sulfur (aids metabolic roles during photosynthesis, and carbon dioxide fixation) and magnesium (influences the size of the plant roots).

How important is sulfer? The GG formula of 15ml PBP Bloom and 5 CalMag profiles at:
N - P - K - Mg - S - Ca - Fe
138-38-181-39-0-89-1.4

Adding *just* 1ml Sweet / gal profiles at:
N - P - K - Mg - S - Ca - Fe
138-38-181-43-57-89-1.4 (also has 0.17 Sodium)

***note: used default density of 1.08, actual may vary (haven't purchased this product yet), anyone who can provide me the actual volume (usually 960ml for them) and wt off the label - I'll update the numbers.

Here is the (1) ml Botanicare SWEET profile:
N-P-K-Mg-S-Ca-Fe
0-0-0-4.3-57.1-0-0.0 (nothing else except the Na at 0.06%)

*To calc your profile for SWEET additive, just multiply the above by the no. of ml you are using / gallon.

I saw a recommended application rate of 10-20ml!
15ml / gal would add:
N-P-K-Mg-S-Ca-Fe
0-0-0-64-857-0-0.0
Seems like MAD sulfer levels, or doesn't it matter?

- - -
EDITED: above sulpher info is incorrect. 857 should read 85.7. The gov't datasource I was using for nute Guar Analysis info did not include the decimal, so 2.0 went into the spreadsheet at 20. So... disregard question/comment.

[Lucas]

> If density is known then the latter is more accurate, right?

absolutely!

the real problem is that what works is a range, not a specific number

and what confounds the problem, is that in medium, some elements accumulate differently than in DWC

> Was thinking of making a fairly open mix, like 50%-60% coco and then both Hydroton and the Perlite, 20-25% each.

well... you can make it as complex as you are inclined.. I would counsel to focus on a repeatable mix others can benefit from, with minimum ingredients..

for my simplistic approach, pure grorox, or pure coco are the two extremes. A 50/50 coco and grorox would be my next iteration.. after that, I lose interest in stocking other products, so I would not deal with perlite at all.. but thats just me

> Can you speak to targets for other elements such as Sulfer, Calcium and Iron?

sorry, no, I have not gone that deep

I think you are surpassing me in terms of your inclination to get even more specific

I have limited myself to using a working recipe, pH's 0-8-16, as a template against which I compare all others..

I do notice that many other nutes mixes have significantly less Iron, Mg, and P, but I have not paid close enough attention to Ca and S to speak intelligently

I have great respect for the work you are doing to bring even more accurate information to the conversation

please carry on the torch

bear in mind also the impact of pH modifyers, and the impact of the source water..

and ultimately, I think you will want to look towards the total nutes per crop factor, which equalizes the variables created by different feeding frequencies. By that I mean, some people who dont feed with nutes at every watering, ultimately will converge with those who feed nutes at every irrigation, when considering the total nutes used per crop life.

this is a way to equalize the apparent differences in nutes delivery strategies that medium versus dwc introduces

my biggest concern has always been how to explain the very low Mg levels in nutes designed for medium, versus the relatively strong levels in GH products..

Canna has several interesting differences in their aqua, flores, and coco lines that will hilite Mg and Calcium target differences..

As far as Sweet goes, and CalMag, they seem to me to just be Bottanicares way of trying to get in line with GH Mg levels... personally, if a recipe uses more than 2 ingredients, I quickly lose interest

keep up the great work, its good to see your enthusiasm

and again, all the credit for the spreadsheet, and the "lucas formula" belongs to my mentor pH

Lucas

[mre420]

>the real problem is that what works is a range, not a specific number

Am using the Mel Frank and pH ranges as a guide. Plus the profiles for formulas folks seem to find successful. Added a recipe worksheet to pH's spreadsheet.

What about Ratios between elements. For example, should Calcium be 3x the level of Mg?

>and what confounds the problem, is that in medium, some elements >accumulate differently than in DWC

Would this mean that hydro formulas may not directly translate to soiless (apart from the 1/3 dilution or feed every third watering)?

Have had success w/ GH 3part for a couple grows and also maintained moms w/ GH. ;-) After finding EJ to be a PITA, went for PBP for the organic allure. Will try the Flora Nova line - like the simplicity factor.

>> Was thinking of making a fairly open mix, like 50%-60% coco and then both Hydroton and the Perlite, 20-25% each.

>well... you can make it as complex as you are inclined.. I would counsel to focus on a repeatable mix others can benefit from, with minimum ingredients..

>for my simplistic approach, pure grorox, or pure coco are the two extremes. A 50/50 coco and grorox would be my next iteration.. after that, I lose interest in stocking other products, so I would not deal with perlite at all.. but thats just me

Good points, especially if you knew how lazy I can be! Planted a clone yesterday in 60/40 coco/perlite. Thinking now of going and trying another w/ 60/40 coco/hydroton to compare for a bit.

Been thinking lately about container size, medium, plant size and watering rate. Current Soiless mix w/ a small plant takes 3 days to dry out, two days when cranking. I want to bring this down closer to that 24hour mark. Maybe 50/50 coco/rox would be about right.


> I do notice that many other nutes mixes have significantly less Iron, Mg, and P, but I have not paid close enough attention to Ca and S to speak intelligently

Found this (no source):
Sulfur is a structural component of amino acids, proteins, vitamins and enzymes and is essential to produce chlorophyll. It imparts flavor to many vegetables. Deficiencies show as light green leaves. Sulfur is readily lost by leaching from soils and should be applied with a nutrient formula. Some water supplies may contain Sulfur.

The PBP Grow, Bloom, Bloom Soil and LK all have ZERO sulfer. Last grow (a Sweet Tooth #3) the leaves on the plant were always a bit light/pale. Was adding Mg (Epsom Salts, ~1/4 tsp/gal, my typical) and it never seemed to come to a deep verdant green, so it was puzzling. Perhaps sulfur was a factor.


>please carry on the torch

in ceremony to the Olympians as yourself.

>bear in mind also the impact of pH modifyers, and the impact of the source water..

Good point. Using RO water (reads 6ppms) but haven't paid too much attention to the pH adjustment, as it's usually minor.

>and ultimately, I think you will want to look towards the total nutes per crop factor, which equalizes the variables created by different feeding frequencies. By that I mean, some people who dont feed with nutes at every watering, ultimately will converge with those who feed nutes at every irrigation, when considering the total nutes used per crop life.

Interesting. Read this in your Ask Lucas thread and it resonated. Will take note.

> keep up the great work, its good to see your enthusiasm

> and again, all the credit for the spreadsheet, and the "lucas formula" belongs to my mentor pH

found a few "pHism's" circa '98:
** First time with a variety is always an adventure:-)))
** Ooops, pruning can be an easy way out of admitting you might be a bit overgrown:-) Yes, I too was in overgrowth denial.
** Are people who ScrOG and get stoned known as ScrOGlodites?

hehe - that last one is funny!

mre

[Glass Man]

Just found this thread. Looks like I need to spend some time here, lots to digest.

I'm using a dry base mix (5-11-26) and adjusting it to match Flora Nova Bloom (4-8-7) since I'd thought I had read it's what the "Lucas Formula" is based on. Am I correct about that? Regardless, my plants are really jamming on it.

From Lucas' first post(above) it appears that "PH" uses a 1:2 micro:bloom mix which yields the NPK of 130-106-183-75 (or 13- 10.6- 18.3- .75)

The Flora Nova Bloom NPK is 4-8-7-2 (or 14.84- 29.68- 26- 7.4)

That formula has a lot more P & K than PH's (or Lucas' , if that's it)

? Which formula IS "The Lucas Formula" that so many folks are using?


Also, another question. I'm ammending my Base (5-11-26- 3.2) by adding
Calcium Nitrate (N-15 & Ca-19)
Triple Super Phosphate (0-56-0)
Epsom Salt (Mg-10 & S-13)

I calculated my mix at: Base = 1.0
CaNO3 = 0.67
STriPhos= 0.41
Epsom Salt = 0.43

If my math's correct that would be close to the Flora Nova Bloom formula.

(If someone would check my math that would be great) I believe I added 10N - 19P - 0.0 K - 4.3 Mg to my Base which would yield 15N - 30P- 26K - 7.5 Mg.

I used the Triple Super Phosphate because it's a solid and I understood how to measure it, but it doesn't dissolve easily and I'm sure that the full P ammount isn't available. I have Phosphoric Acid, but don't understand how to measure it. Are the units of measure "mililiters' instead of "grams" ?

Thanks to anyone who has the time to help me with this. :)

Peace,
glass

[Glass Man]

I should'a checked the links before posting, as they answered most of my questions.

I'm reading the "CannaStats" one now and it's great. Thanks Lucas. :)

[Lucas]

> match Flora Nova Bloom (4-8-7) since I'd thought I had read it's what the "Lucas Formula" is based on. Am I correct about that? Regardless, my plants are really jamming on it.

correct but reversed

pH's 7.5ml Micro, plus 15 ml bloom using GH Flora Series was the basis fror the Lucas Formula.

The monicker stuck, but its not my idea.

I changed the numbers to 0-8-16, because its easier to do math in my head with whole numbers

When Flora Nova Bloom came out, I was amazed to note that GH had been reading the boards, and had made an all in one product that copied pH's original recipe, almost exactly

I Highly recommend Flora Nova Bloom @ ~1300 ppm on a .7 conversion meter.

Since the product varies a bit in thickness, it may take 6 ml per gallon of Flora Nova Bloom, or it may take 8ml... but crosscheck to achieve a TDS of 13-1400... be sure you are using a .7 conversion meter to gauge by those values..

> "PH" uses a 1:2 micro:bloom mix which yields the NPK of 130-106-183-75

that is correct

> (or 13- 10.6- 18.3- .75)

No, that is not correct..

you have to use pH's spreadsheet, into which you input the 4-8-7 values, then you have to input the number of ml/gallon, so the spreadsheet calculates the Elemental PPM's

Elemental PPM's from the spreadsheet are the Net active ingredients, which is not at all the same as the percent ingredients contained on the bottle. Net ingredients are affected by the quantity of nutes, per gallon of water

> Which formula IS "The Lucas Formula" that so many folks are using?

8ml micro, 16ml bloom, per gallon, which is supposed to come out to 1334ppm of TDS on a .7 conversion meter

or the equivalent TDS of Flora Nova Bloom, which can be achieved by using 6-8ml per gallon of nutes, depending on how thick the mix pours out of the bottle... which depends on how well you shake...

Flora Nova is the one stop shop, that Magically imitates 0-8-16, which requires 2 ingredients.. I like one stop solutions

however, Flora Nova is thick, while the original Flora series is not thick... so if your system is troubled by potential clogs from thick nutes, stick with the original Flora 2 part formula

> If my math's correct that would be close to the Flora Nova Bloom formula.

you must input your ingredients into the spreadsheet.. you cant just add up the label values

> I have Phosphoric Acid, but don't understand how to measure it. Are the units of measure "mililiters' instead of "grams" ?

yes,mililiters and grams are interchangeable, you still need to input the percent dilution into the spreadsheet..

you NEED the spreadsheet

Im glad you went to CannaStats, thats the original source material, and will greatly expand your ability to learn the details

well done
Lucas

[Glass Man]

Thanks Lucas,
I "think" I understand everything you said. I glanced at the spreadsheet, but it will take me a little while to figure it out. The one's with the GH values already in place shows me how it's supposed to look, but the blank sheet looks too "blank" I'll have to scratch my head some (and probably ask you some more questions ;)).

I just assumed you could slide the decimal points left or right, and the percentages would remain constant. But you were meaning that those are ppm's and not percentages, so it's different.

I'll start working with the spreadsheet and see what it says about my formula. It sure will be easier than crunching numbers the hard way.


Maybe I'll go into the fertilizer biz! LOL


peace,

[mre420]

Glass - I looked at your numbers and Lucas is spot on. BTW, the spreadsheet isn't too complex if you've used excel before, and you can still muddle through it. Read the "ReadMe" tab, pH put good documentation there about the tool. I've got it down at this point and can probably help a bit. Here are the numbers I was able to establish for the Flora NOVA Series (COPY the exact lines pasted below between the "- - -" marks into the "My Sheet" tab first, and then copy these to the "Guaranteed Analysis" sheet - using edit, paste special, values - that way you don't overwrite formatting):

these are the headers, same as on Guart Anal sheet, put them in column A:
- - - start - - -
Manufacturer
Product Name
Grams per mL if liquid

Nitrate N (NO3)
Ammoniacal N (NH4)
Urea N (NH2)

Phosphorus (as P2O5)
Potassium (as K2O)
Magnesium (Mg)
Sulfur (S)
Calcium (Ca)
Iron (Fe)
Boron (B)
Manganese (Mn)
Zinc (Zn)
Molybdenum (Mo)
Sodium (Na)
Copper (Cu)
Chlorine (Cl)
Cobalt (Co)
Silicon (Si)
Selenium (Se)
Cost per mL or Gram
- - - end - - -

then paste (values only) the Nova Grow in column B:
- - - start - - -
General Hydro
Flora Nova Grow
1.081

0.070



0.040
0.100
0.015
0.020
0.040
0.000100000


0.000000107
0.000000019



0.000000011


0.000000000
- - - end - - -

and the Nova Bloom:
- - - start - - -
General Hydro
Flora Nova Bloom
1.081

0.040



0.080
0.070
0.020
0.020
0.040
0.001000000


0.000000108
0.000000018



0.000000011


0.000000000
- - - end - - -

That should get you started. I don't have the densities of the Nova Line. Good luck, let us know how it goes. You'll like the spreadsheet in no time.

mre

[Glass Man]

Thanks mre420,
I'm not very good with computers (don't know how to paste or use excell) If I give you the values for my "base" foumula and also the values for the ingredients which I am using to adjust the NPK (just 3 ingredients: Calcium Nitrate, Epsom Salt, & Phosphoric Acid) would you be willing to run them on the spreadsheet?

I'm not lazy, I'll try the spreadsheet too. Just not sure how long it will take me, or if I'll get it right. :)

Btw, My base is Southern Ag's 5-11-26 Hydroponic Special they have a website with pdf files with the specs if you want to see them.

I know I'm asking a lot, but you seem to know what you're doing and I'll be fumbling at it for a while. :) If you don't have time, I totally understand and many thanks for the help you have already given me.

I'm off to play with the spreadsheet....

peace,
GM

[Glass Man]

What about the tab "Solution Mix"? Can I just plug my numbers into that?

I've been looking at the tab "My Sheet" and can't tell where those numbers "go" after I've typed them in. Do they get used on the "Guaranteed Analysis" page?

I'm trying choose a "target" profile and then list the ingredients I have to work with, and want receive a "recipe" (using what I have) to match the target profile.

Am I missing the simplisity of it?



I guess I still don't understand what I was doing wrong by my pencil & paper method of adjusting the NPK percentages. How was all of this calculated before excel? Do the numbers that I posted earlier work, or are they off? I'm all for learning, but if I already had it figured right...I'd be happy just doing it that way. :(

[knna]

Id been researching about reccomended levels of nutrients in hydroponic formulas, so i can apport some info about other nutrients levels than NPK.

First all, i paste a table with the elemental composition of higher plants, wich must serve as the orientative target:

Element ppm %

Hydrogen 60,000 6
Carbon 450,000 45
Oxygen 450,000 45
Nitrogen 15,000 1.5
Potassium 10,000 1.0
Calcium 5,000 0.5
Magnesium 2,000 0.2
Phosphorus 2,000 0.2
Sulfur 1,000 0.1
Chlorine 100 0.01
Boron 20 0.002
Iron 100 0.01
Manganese 50 0.005
Zinc 20 0.002
Copper 6 0.0006
Molybdenum 0.1 0.00001

(From A Review of Factors Affecting Plant Growth (http://www.hydrofarm.com/content/articles/factors_plant.html), table adapted from Salisbury article.

Notice that Phosporus is 0,2%, same as Mg, wich requires about 50-70ppm in the Nutrient Solution (NS), at least in recirculating hydros, because one is absorbed as cation (mg) and the other like anion. Cation get fixed in the medium, like anions remains in the NS, resulting in anions easily flushed while cations not.

In cannabis, P is required basically in the flower stage, when the Mel Franks target of 100ppm seem reasonable, while in veg 50ppm seems more than enough, and probably P level of 35ppm dont get P problems (im going to try it next grow).

Mg recomended level is minimun 35ppm, but it seems that cannabis need a higher level, specially in flowering. Most formulas trigger a 50-70 ppm of mg. But it must be compensated with the other main cations (Ca and K), because any excess in one affect the others. Maybe higher levels of mg over 35ppm arnt neccesary in flower stage, and frecuents Mg deff in flowering are due to excessive K from PK additives.

From the 3, K is what have the max medium fixation, resulting in a lower NS concentration in relation to its presence in plant tissue, while NS relation of Ca/Mg is similar to that found in plant tissue.

Because of that, K levels often arnt trigged over 200ppm, although K toxicity level are far higher than that, but it try to not affect Ca/Mg absortion if K concentrations are higher. Very often, the Ca reccomended level is 150ppm, about 2,5-3 times the mg concentration. Ive read that Mg concentration must be from 2 to 4 times less than Ca concentration to avoid absortion problems.

So the K-Ca-Mg target: 150/200- 150- 50/70.

S level, according to tissue concentration, must be about half of mg, 25-35ppm. But S toxicity is very high, and higher S level dont harm. It can go to 100ppm without problems. So really S concentration isnt critical. Mantaining it over 35ppm is enough, but if the nutrients profile need to be higher (or a lot higher) in S, from what ive read, dont report problems. In fact, is in S levels when comercial formulas differ more.

Now the time for Fe. Very often, Fe reccomendation are between 1 and 2 ppm of chelated iron. But it is strongly dependent of chelate used. The common and cheaper EDTA requires more concentration then EDDHA, wich best lines uses.

Ive found this interesting article: Iron Requirement and Iron Uptake (http://www.pubmedcentral.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=367458), wich states then iron requeriment of dicotyledonous species are far less than monocotyledonous species (up to 30 fold difference). Most dic species perform the better with 0,2-0,4 ppm of EDDHA

knna

[mre420]

Glassman:
I’ll help where/when I can. Did find your fert info: (http://www.southernag.com/labels.htm, label is: http://www.southernag.com/labels/05-11-26.pdf, and found other label too.). The guaranteed analysis from the label is entered into the Spreadsheet on the Guaranteed Analysis tab.

What about the tab "Solution Mix"? Can I just plug my numbers into that?
This is where you enter the recipe, the #ml/gal you use, always in the yellow colored cells. On this sheet you also input the Epsom Salts. You can enter the rez size and it will calc the total nutes to add for you.

I've been looking at the tab "My Sheet" and can't tell where those numbers "go" after I've typed them in. Do they get used on the "Guaranteed Analysis" page?
Yes, you copy from there to the GA tab. I was only suggesting the My Sheet because it’s unprotected and easier to play here than paste to the GA sheet. If you end up with more than 7 ferts you can keep them all here and copy to the Guaranteed Analysis tab as needed instead of retyping each time in the GA tab. You can add more sheets too (which is what I did for recipes). No worries, just focus on the basics. Don’t even worry about cut and paste from above, as it probably won’t work right w/ the percentage formatting in there (uh, “cell formatting” – sorry if this is more confusing). Just type in the values from the Label (that’s what I did to get the following info). When entering small percentages like 0.05%, enter the 0 then decimal, etc.

I'm trying choose a "target" profile and then list the ingredients I have to work with, and want receive a "recipe" (using what I have) to match the target profile.

Am I missing the simplisity of it?
Sounds about right. So… what’s your Target Profile?

Ok, on with it… lots of good info on their label. In addition to the Guaranteed Analysis info (on left of page, which is what you key into the Guaranteed Analysis page), there is the following...

S.Ag 5-11-26 Hydro Special
Hydroponic Suggestions (general):
Mix the following per 1,000 gallons of water:
8 lbs. 5-11-26 Hydro. Special
2 lbs. Epsom Salts
5 lbs. + 6 ozs. Calcium Nitrate Sol.
note: Iron sources such as Sequestrene may be added as needed.

Resulting Nutrient Concentrations
N 150 ppm
P 52 ppm
K 250 ppm
Ca 121 ppm
Mg 52 ppm
Fe 3 ppm
B 0.5 ppm
Cu 0.5 ppm
Mn 0.5 ppm
Zn 0.5 ppm
Mo 0.1 ppm

Garden use equivalents for above:
Mix the following per 5 gallons of water:
4 teaspoons 5-11-26 Hydro. Special
1 teaspoon Epsom Salts
2 teaspoons Calcium Nitrate Sol.


Ok, let’s see if the above results check out with what I got with the spreadsheet… First we need to know how many ml or grams to enter for each of the ingredients, so our mix will be of the same strength as theirs. Need to do a few calcs…
They list 8lbs/1000gal. Ok, 8 lbs is 3629 grams, so we have 3.63 grams/gallon as your strength. If you calc their recipe using the teaspoon formula, you get: 4.93ml/tsp * 4tsp / 5gal = 3.94 ml/gal (difference due to rounding the measures). You can take their recommended rate of tsp/5 gal and just call that ml/gal – EASY!! So, your recipe is 4 of the Special, 2 ml/gal of the Calcium Nitrate and 1ml/gal of the Epsom Salts.
And the spreadsheet results (with weights checked) are:
N - P - K - Mg - S - Ca - Fe
148-56-251-63-34-110-3.5 - Total is 676ppms (this is total of active elements, your measured actual will be higher, usually 3x depending on your meter scale, .5 or .7). Ok, so give me your recipe using this and I’ll run the calc.

One more thing: a good piece of info to have when playing around to find a recipe mix that matches a Target Profile, is the Estimated ppm / ec info (from 1ml/gal). I measured mine and came very close to actual with the estimated of the sheet. This is an important step if you want to use the tool to find a recipe that ALSO meets your criteria for Total actual EC / TDS. For example, the Botanicare CalMag product puts in a lot of ppms for what it adds to the active element profile. Estimated PPM’s gives you this without the trial and error of mixing and measuring each proposed recipe.


BTW, the quick search for your nute labels also turned up this on the gardenweb site you may find of use (Source: http://forums.gardenweb.com/forums/load/hydro/msg050510018323.html?6):

OK.....moving on....a few years later....I tried 5-11-26 water soluble hydroponic fert from Southern Ag.....it works fine but the PH constantly drifts up because the N is from nitrates....
I don't like to play with acid....so I now mix 10 to 20% of miracle gro with the commercial stuff from southern Ag.....if the PH goes down to 5.5, I stop using miracle gro....if the PH gets to 6.5, I add a little miracle gro to the mixture.....this works great....my PH runs between 5.5 to 7.5......the plants don't know the difference....try to keep it in the range of 5.5 to 6.5.....
if you read the fine print on miracle gro, peters, or sam's deep feeding, and Southern Ag 5-11-26....they all have about the same ingredients except for the N component......The 5-11-26 also has some epsom salts in it so you can stop using epsom salts or use less......

knna:
Thanks for the Target Profile info. I see you have a knowledge depth in nutrients as well as lighting (looked at your spreadsheets). The link to Factors Affecting Plant Growth is a good overview, provides some element targets, and I liked the plant signs of toxicity levels for each element.

So the K-Ca-Mg target: 150/200- 150- 50/70.

Interesting. Here is the Profile Target from “pH Imbalance” in the MJ Growers Handbook for first two weeks of growth (found in a table w/ Mel Frank’s Profile Targets), the formula is 9M-15B-0G (GH nutes):
N - P - K - Mg - S - Ca – Fe
146-99-175-68-46-146-2.9

Right in line with your targets!

Here is Lucas Formula 8M-16B-0G w/ the micro elements:
N - P - K - Mg - S - Ca – Fe
130-106-183-73-49-130-2.6

Go kindly,

mre

[Glass Man]

delete

[Glass Man]

mre420,
I'd asked if you would run a mix for me but I mixed a batch using the Phosphoric acid to raise the "P" , but it lowered the pH way too much so I decided to use a differnt P source. I'll get it together and ask you to run it through for me later.

thanks,
GM

[mre420]

Sure thing GM.
mre

[Glass Man]

After speaking to the S Ag tech guy I decided to use their Plant Starter 12-48-8 for boosting the P. I already mixed a batch of it, but would really appreciate you running it through the spreadsheet to help make it more accurate.

My target is the GH Flora Nova Bloom NPK Ca Mg of 4-8-7-4-2

I am using these ingredients: S Ag Hydro Base 5-11-26-0-3.2
S Ag Plant Starter 12-48-8
CaNO3 15.5-0-0-19-0
Epsom Salt 10-Mg , 14-S

I started with a 2:1 Hydro:Plant Starter mix , which looked good on paper.


My res size is 100 gallons.

Note: I must have miscalculated something as the first mix only gave me a reading of 650ppm, so I doubled the mix to get it up to 1350. This worked very well pH-wise as my 1st reading was 6.0 Also the plants look quite happy, after 3 days they appear very healthy and show no shock of any kind.

Thanks,
GM

[mre420]

GM,

I put your new product to the sheet. First, I considered what 1ml/gal of each of your ingredients adds:
S.Ag 5-11-26 Hydro Spcl.
12-12-52-8-0-0-0.73; 87

Calcium Nitrate
44-0-0-0-0-54-0.00; 99

S. Ag Plnt Start 12-48-8
34-60-19-0-0-0-0.29

Mg
0-0-0-26-34-0-0.00; 59
N - P - K - Mg - S - Ca – Fe

Then, for the Target Recipe: Here is what 6ml / gal of GH Flora Nova Bloom looks like (which should roughly be the formula / strength you are aiming for):
N - P - K - Mg - S - Ca – Fe; Tot PPM (active elements, not meter reading)
69-60-100-34-34-69-1.71; 367

Ok, so I mixed and matched above as best I could to hit that number. The Calcium Nitrate is the only element providing Ca, so started w/ that, and 1.27ml/gal gives the desired 68ppm of Ca (plus 56 N).
Then I moved onto the Epsom Salts, as that is the only source of Sulpher (34 target, but this should be flexible) and at 1ml/gal provides 34S and 26Mg. There is a little Mg in the 5-11-26 nute, but none in the 12-48, so if more Mg is needed will up the Mg a bit.
Then tried playing with the other two to get something that fit the GH profile. Bit tougher (couldn't get the P & K high enough without exceeding N goals). Here is what I arrived at:
1.3 ml/gal - S.Ag 5-11-26 Hydro Spcl.
1.26 ml/gal - Calcium Nitrate
0.5 ml/gal - S. Ag Plnt Start 12-48-8
1 ml/gal - Mg
The resulting profile is:
N - P - K - Mg - S - Ca – Fe
89-45-78-36-34-68-1.09; 294

Hope that helps. You might try a gallon and see how this checks out compared to what nute ratios / amounts you used. Good luck.

mre

[mre420]

Hmm, ran it again w/ lower Calcium Nitrate and profile might be a bit better:
1.7 ml/gal - S.Ag 5-11-26 Hydro Spcl.
1.0 ml/gal - Calcium Nitrate
0.6 ml/gal - S. Ag Plnt Start 12-48-8
1.0 ml/gal - Mg
N - P - K - Mg - S - Ca – Fe
85-56-101-39-34-54-1.41; 315

mre

[Glass Man]

mre420,
Thanks so much for running those for me. I'm looking forward to learning how to use that spreadsheet. It looks like fun (in a nerdy kind of way:)).

My mix is much lower on the Calcium Nitrate (I'd realized that I fumbled that number after mixing the batch). At this stage (4th week of 12/12) I don't think they'll miss the N, but they might want more calcium. I'll just read up on Ca deficiency signs and keep an eye out for it.

I'll be mixing a batch today for my 45 gallon resevoir. I'll use your second formula and see how it does.


Note: If anyone reading this trys to use these ingredients remember that you'll need to mix the Epsom Salt seperately from the rest of the mix, rather than making a concentrated pre-mix including it, because it will react with the Calcium Nitrate and something (probably the calcium) precipitates out of solution. It forms a crusty white accumulation in the mixing container. Just add the totally dissovled Epsom Salt to the resevoir after the other ingredients have totally dispersed in the tank.

GM

[mre420]

GM - sounds good. Good luck w/ the mix and I'd suggest mixing your nutes in a 1gal or 5gal bucket, then adding to your rez until you get the ppm you are looking for. All the best on a great harvest!!!

mre

[Glass Man]

mre420,
Those measurements are for Liters instead of Gallons, and also grams instead of mililiters since it's in powder form. Also, I added all of the weights which I'd calculated for the volume of solution I was making and realized that the resulting ppms would have been too high (1700-1800 I think), so I divided 1350 (my target ppm) and came up with 0.78 as a multiplyer to evenly reduce all the weights by. It worked, as my resevoir measured 1380ppm when I filled it. I wonder how the spreadsheet overstated the numbers? If my ending TDS measurements hadn't confirmed my calculations, I would have assumed that I was wrong about something.

I just wanted to add the above to help anyone who might try any of this sometime. It's not as difficult as this discussion would lead you to believe, I just didn't know how to use Excel.

Thanks again mre420 & I'll keep you posted on the results. :)


peace,

[mre420]

GM - first off, very glad your final mix came out well!! Your 1350 ppm is using a 0.7 conversion meter, right? This would be close to 2.0EC which is a good target for the roots.

I could have listed grams instead of ml. Was assuming density is close to 1g/ml. You would need to calc that, but using recipes on the label it seemed about right. Maybe closer to 0.9? Based on that, the amounts provided were per gallon.

One question - did you think the Total PPM's provided w/ the recipe was what your meter should read? Your meter will always read higher than what the spreadsheet says, because the spreadsheet only provides total PPM's for the active elements, and there are additional things in your mix that result in a higher measured ppm. That's normal. The only way to create a recipe and estimate what the final ppm will be, is to actually measure what 1ml/gal produces in RO water. The net increase using tap water will be fairly close. These are input to the sheet, and it will calc the estimated TDS/EC (below the elements on the Solution Mix tab). If the TDS@.7 for 1ml/gal isn't entered into the Guaranteed Analysis tab, then instead of providing an estimate, the cells will show "#/NA".

Hope that helps and great job hanging in there considering youre new to excel!

mre

[Glass Man]

I have a Hanna Dist meter (the blue one), is that an o.7 ?

I am not sure what I "understood", but here's what I did to get the correct concentration according to my meter. I used your second formulation and crunched the numbers with a calculator.

Ok: 1.7 grams per Liter - Hydr (5-11-26 Hydro Base)
0.6 " " - Blm (12-48-8 plt starter/Bloom)
1.0 " " -CaNO3 (Calcium Nitrate)
1.0 " " - MgSO4(Epsom Salt)

Note: I was mixing the batch for a 40 Gallon Res, but also did the math for a 100 gallon since the numbers were easier to check (& I also have a 100 gal res)

152 Liter (40 gal) 400 Liter (100 gal) approx

1.7 (x152) = 258.4 (X 400) = 680
0.6 = 91.20 = 240
1.0 = 152 =400
1.0 = 152 =400

=4.3 total =653.60 =1720

The total for the 400L (100 gal) mix alerted me that 1720 would quite likely result in a 1720ppm solution. But I'm not sure why, since I was thinking it was 1720 grams of solids dissolved in 400 Liters of water. I'm still wondering how I came to that conclusion?? My earlier mixing notes clued me into realizing that the totals of the multipliers should be close to 3.30 grams to yield a 1350ppm solution. (notes are useful, even when you don't understand what they mean!! :) )

So anyway, thinking that the resulting mix would result in a 1720ppm reading I divided 1350 by 1720 = 0.78 so I then multiplied all the numbers you had given me by 0.78 to reduce them evenly.

so, 1.7 x 0.78 = 1.33
0.6 = 0.47
1.0 = 0.78
1.0 = 0.78
total = 3.35 3.35 grams x 400 Liters = 1340ppm

then I ran those numbers again and that told me the solution should be 1344ppm

Upon mixing the 40 gallon res I came up with a TDS meter reading of 1360, and the following morning it read about 1330. The pH was 6.0 so I added a bit of phosphoric acid to bring it down to 5.8


Did that answer any of your questions? I'm not certain that I really understand the math, quite possibly "dumb luck" was on my side. But I do believe the numbers you provided were good ones.

I often find when working math problems out that I don't necessarily have to understand the math involved if I have an idea (hunch) of the resulting answers that I'm aiming for beforehand I can poke around at it until the numbers seem to work themselves out....I think that's called "making do with what you have"! That's one of those double sided compliments, sort of like the saying "you're smarter than you look"!!


peace,

[Indica Sativa]

Wink Why the lucas formula is a stinker
The lucas formula has 2 problems:

>>> It contains too much p. 106 is bonkers. Normal range in hydro is 30-50.
>>> The ratio of potassium to calcium to magnesium is wrong. These 3 compete with each other getting in the plant. Too much of one can cause one of the others to become deficient. This is called cation (for positively charged) completion.

You want about 4:2:1 potassium to calcium to magnesium. This is about the ratio you find in normal plants (most any). If you look at the ratio in the lucas formula for potassium to magnesium its 183:73 or 2.5:1 You’ll end up with a potassium problem with this. Remember that if you don't see potassium problems, it can still be occuring. This is called hidden hunger. You need more potassium. So the solution is to add the grow portion because it contains a lot of k.

in parts per million and ml Per gallon of water...

pH's "Lucas Formula" values for 8ml micro, 16ml bloom
n 130
p 106
k 183
Ca 130
Mg 73

and GH 3 part bloom formula
GH 5grow, 10micro, 15bloom
159 n
92 p
219 k
162 ca
66 mg

So now our potassium to magnesium ratio is 3.3:1 by using some grow along with almost the lucas formula at 10 micro 15 bloom instead of 8 micro 16 bloom. But, we only want about 100 n in flower or you get too much leafy growth. Our formula has 159 n. So just use less than full strength. ¾ strength gives you this:

119 n
69 p
164 k
121 ca
50 mg

So we improved the potassium to magnesium ratio. And reduced our p from over 100 down to something more reasonable at 69. Don’t worry terribly over the calcium being a little high because it competes with the other 2 the least amount. Its slow moving into the plant. It's kinda shy. LOL. :)

Compare the new formula to formula 2 page 11. It is close to Jensen’s at the University of California at Davis.

http://vric.ucdavis.edu/veginfo/top...hydroponics.pdf

N 106
P 62
K 156
Ca 93
Mg 48

Good luck everyone growing!

Please conduct yourselves in an Adult manner with all questions and comments. Thanks.

thoughts or opinions lucas? http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=46316

[Tug]

Maybe that 'hidden hunger' is one of the fine stresses that increase THC?
The formula seems to work pretty good, especially if some organics are added.

peace - Tug

[Mr.GoodStuff]

thoughts or opinions lucas? http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=46316

The "hidden hunger" part was pretty rich... The results speak for themselves, if they had any balls at all they would test the formulas side by side and show pictures instead of posting links to articles.

The proof is in the plants, prove it is better with higher yeilds and healthier plants and I'll be listening. That's why I use the Lucas formula after all- a friend of mine's garden looked the way I wanted mine to look so I switched to what he was using. It was only better that I dont have to change the res every week and it cost so much less, but the health of the plants is what I switched for and it works. Hidden hunger... Oh man... LOL

If they want to say it sucks without pictures all I have to say is bullshit.

[primero]

I am curious if anyone knows a lucas type formula for House and Garden nutes?

[HeadBand]

Hi guys, just reading your thread here. Very informative by the way, lots of very valuable info on these pages here.


I just had to add my two cents tho...I have found in my experience with bo sweet it has little to no effect. I actually found it was better to just leave it out of the mi altogether.

I want certifiable organics so i ventured down the BioCanna path and the program is fantastic. the bio canna medium bio vega rhizotonic bio flores cannazyme and bio boost. This program has been put to the test by myself and my circle and has surpassed all expectations. We have all converted to strictly this program in all our work. Unbelievable results with such ease of use. Not a sales pitch, just my two cents...