Against Bubblers

[Lucas]

Against Bubblers
also posted at http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=26021

Bubblers are a very interesting way to grow. The ability to see the roots thriving under water causes a change in how we think about plants needs for water and oxygen.

However, bubblers can become increasingly complex when there is more than one to maintain in a grow.

Each separate bubbler reservoir changes in nutrient EC independent of the others, and adjusting multiple reservoirs, especially with roots growing in them, can be quite a chore.

To solve the independent changes in EC of separate bubblers, some systems interlink all the bubblers with plumbing, thereby mixing all the bubblers nutrients to a homogeneous EC.

but adding plumbing to bubblers leads to complexity.

In addition, bubblers are prone to problems if the nutrient temperature goes above 70F. It is possible to cool a bubbler by blowing air accross the nutrients, but this also adds complexity.

Now consider Ebb/Flow

There is no problem maintaining multiple reservoirs, since there is only one, and there is no problem mixing nutes in the res, since the roots are not in there.

And, with ebb flow, it does not matter if the water gets warm, even 80F nute temps wont harm an ebb flow grow.

It would seem therefore, that Ebb/Flow technology is actually less complex than a bubbler system, from the standpoint of res maintenance.

Another advantage of Ebb/Flow over bubblers is that in ebb flow the roots dont get tangled together, so unlike a bubbler, in ebb/flow it is possible to move plants around.

The ability to spread plants apart in Ebb/Flow is a serious advantage over having to prune and train bubbler plants to have equal access to the light.


Now about yield.

imvho, there is no nutrient that you can use that will increase yield, nor is there an additive you can use that will increase yield.

yield comes from light, so a system that maximises light penetration, will yield better than one that has over or underfilled canopy area. This means that any grow with higher plant numbers is likely to yield better than a similar grow with lower plant numbers.

imho, the single most significant factor on yield is plant numbers, not nutrients, or growing style.

for example, thirty plants under 1k will yield more than 10 plants under 1k, even if the 10 plants are pruned, trained, vegged, scrogged, or in any other way controlled to capture light efficiently.

after years of examining grow reports, it is quite rare to find a gram a watt yield from 10 plants per 1k, but it is somewhat common to find that gram a watt yielders tend to fall into the 30+ plants per 1k category.

as an extreme example of the impact of plant numbers, consider DDoc's 3lb per 1k yields from 100 plants per 1k...

bottom line, ebb flow with high plant numbers is a more practical way to reach a gram a watt than 10 plants per 1k in a bubbler.

I would be interested in grow reports from folks hitting a gram a watt. the main thing Im looking for is plant numbers per 1k of light.


in conclusion
At this stage of my learning, for people looking for the simplest way to grow, I think Ebb/Flow is superior to bubblers.

thanks
Lucas
__________________________
pH's spreadsheet http://www.angelfire.com/cantina/fourtwenty/articles/premixppm3b.zip
Spreadsheet values of Canna, GH, and PureBlendPro recipes http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=21119
Getting started in hydro http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=21117
Calculating Nutrient levels http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=21254
Against Bubblers http://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=26021

[ihaveworms]

we can agree to disagree Lucas ;) .. hehe..

ebb/flow IMO seems abit more than the usualy beginner should deal with.. with plant #'s and setup (not as hard if the whole system is just bought) ...

will post more in just a bit ;) damn pizza just showed up :)

worms

[Deltanugz]

..

[Old Toby]

I came to the same conclusions as Lucas on my own. Even when the un AC'd room reaches temps MUCH too high for the plants, the large covered rez, sitting on concrete and flooding for 8 mins every 2 hours never sees temps over 65f. If I was blowing 100f bubbles in that rez, it would reach 85F after 3 light cycles.....not good. I believe that E&F + PBP is the most KISS inspired grow anyone could hope to have. It's not the only way...but it's damn simple.

[ihaveworms]

IMO there is no "right" way.. .all depending on their own situations..

example:

a drain and waste isn't the way to go if your setup is in a place that is hidden or could cause irrepetable damage i.e. attic .. etc..

now a ebb/flow table- like before, you have to consider your own situation.. some want just a couple of plants in a closet and don't have the room for that situation and plant numbers... i remember when i was new to the hobby, my biggest factor was planet #'s... etc...

now the good thing when dealing with dwc- is that you can work in a limited amount of space and not have to use a resevoir or be running tubing which connects the buckets or tubs together...

what if you ran tubs and they were individually filled with no controller or resevoir ??? maybe have to top off once a week until late in flower.. when more nute mix is needed... there are so many different factors when it comes to deciding your beginning setup..

and IMHO, DWC without all the controller/resevoir is a very easy way for a beginner with the system to start if growing just a couple of ladies...

btw lucas- back in my day of serious growing- i had 4 plants under a 1K and was a 1/2 zip short of 2 lbs... but the veg time and maitanance was horrible and will never do it again... way way to much "care" needed...

all like i said IMHO .. good luck guys/gals

btw, glad to c u made it here Lucas... your are a great stepping stone in our community...

worms

[Flynnie]

Very interesting thread, Lucas.
Hope you don't mind me posting the following, an old CW thread about converting an E&F table to DWC. Reuse's info is great!

MikeRoGrow - MikeRoGrow from OG here, used to be registered, but not sure anymore.

Trust me, you dont want to convert to dwc. E&F is much simpler and more well engineered. Your e&f will preform just as well. If you are trying to grow HUGE bushes, I still woudn't go DWC, IMHO.

Been there, done the 5 gal DWC garden, it's not what its talked up to be. Very wasteful system.

more pot - Wasteful....DWC? You must be kidding.

Can you explain how and why ebb and flow is much simpler....and better engineered, cmon really?
In my experience the abscence of a timer is one less variable to worry about. No worrying about floods per day at different points of the plants growth. With nft the nutes and O2 are always there...the plant takes what it wants.
Evidently you didnt have all your environment/feeding dialed in when using DWC. The only thing I have played w/that could give dwc or nft a run for its money is aero. But the noisey pump that sucks down 800watts wasnt for me. Enironmental factors can and will make or break you.

DWC not for me - >In my experience the abscence of a timer is one less variable to worry about.

Oh please. You might as well get rid of your lights if timers really make you worry. If anything about a system is a no-brainer it's the timer.<g>

>No worrying about floods per day at different points of the plants growth.

You worry way too much for your own good dude. Set floods per day to satisfy the garden when plants have matured and are using the most water they will use. Do that once with your first crop, then use those settings forever, even for new little clones. You do not have to change timer settings with ebb and flow to accomodate different points of the plants growth. If you did that with ebb and flow you're being way to anal for your own good.

>With nft the nutes and O2 are always there...the plant takes what it wants.

Your missing a point about ebbing water sucking fresh O2 into the media with every flood/drain cycle. DWC doesn't have anything over ebb and flow when it comes to O2 availability.

DWC's only source for O2 is the air pump working in the res, it's not an option with DWC it's a requirement. With e&f you have the option to do that too, but you also get plenty of atmospheric O2 with every flood cycle. Bottom line, if you need to worry about something, you can worry about your DWC air pump, cuz e&f don't need one.<g>

>Evidently you didnt have all your environment/feeding dialed in when using DWC.

One might say the same for people who can't manage "dialing in" their e&f systems correctly.

I've never had to worry about the water level in my e&f res. I refill it when I darn well feel like it, even if it's down 12 or more inches. Oh, you say you can add a second res and a float valve to solve that problem with DWC? From the perspective of a successful e&f user, that's kind of wasteful cuz we don't need it.<g>

UnaBonger - Thank you DWCnotforme...

I've grown a few plants in DWC, went through the whole routine putting together hoses with air pumps, changing out air stones, figuring out a way to have a self feed reservior. It was a damned lot of work.

Then set up a buddy with two 4x4 E/F tables, rockwool, one 35 gallon tub underneath, one pump, one timer. Done. Beautiful results.

So my new grow is E/F. For me it comes down to the simplicity, and the noise. Air pumps are noisy, they need outlets, they have tubes running everywhere, ugh. Powerheads maybe better but they can warm up the solution to unacceptable levels. Connecting the extra reservior was a big ass pain to. Talk about another point of failure! Valves, pipe, basin, more space needed.

Discarding old rockwool is the only downside to ebb and flow but that's not that big of a deal.

And you're right as far as "dialing in" the setup. Couldn't have been easier. Used the Lucas 0/8/16, ended up adjusting that to 8/8/16 later as the babies seemed to do better with more nitrogen, maybe that's strain specific? Never even worried about adjusting the ph down from 7.2 or so. They did great, yields were probably 1.25 lbs / 1000kw or so.

Reuse - >Discarding old rockwool is the only downside to ebb and flow but that's not that big of a deal.

Rockwool was designed for top drip systems, originally using the cube building block approach with larger rockwool slabs. Disposable media had a lot of appeal back then, mostly to commercial hydro greenhouses.

Then some prefab hydro system makers decided they could broaden their market if they too jumped on the disposable media bandwagon. So they bastardized the use of rockwool by eliminating the slab that's needed to grow large plants, and used only the small cubes to grow small plants. It can work, but because it isn't the preferable media for e&f, and because a lot of people ignore the fact that slabs are to be used for large plants with rockwool culture, a lot of people have problems using shallow e&f tables that were sold as rockwool systems. This is especailly true when they try to grow larger plants to maturity.

Gravel has always been the preferred media for e&f, or grow rocks. Anything that has very large air spaces, that drains very rapidly, and doesn't hold a lot of water. Rockwool does not fit that profile.

Also, e&f typically uses deeper media depths to support larger plants, and to provide the benefits of true e&f aeration to a larger mass of media containing roots. But many e&f tables marketed for use with rockwool are too shallow. So, many people who don't know better are misusing e&f flow tables by trying to make them do things they weren't designed for. IOW If you can't get blood from a stone, don't blame the stone.

So to be honest, discarding old rockwool isn't really a downside of e&f, because e&f generally works best with reusable aggregate mediums. It's the downside of people who didn't choose the right system, or media, or in this case both.


>BTW, ever notice that the plants whose roots hit the reservoir, no matter what system, are always the healthiest....wonder why

Well, you can't really say "no matter what system", because "hitting the reservoir" is a term unique to DWC or passive type systems:-) It has no use in any e&f user's vocabulary.

The answer you wonder about is because the plants aren't getting all of what they need "until" they hit the reservoir water. Not so with e&f, top drip, or any active system capable of moving the water to the plants.

>Personally, I dont know what cyborgs motives for the change are. I have used e/f in the past as a veg system and liked it a lot for its simplicty.

I'd speculate that the practices he's using with his table aren't in alignment with the type and size of plants he wants to grow, and that he doesn't know what else to do about it.

He has a table system capable of flooding to a depth of more than 1 1/2 inches but isn't utilizing it. And though I believe any e&f system worth it's name should flood to at least 6 or 8 inches, he could probably make his shallow table work better.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cyborgs:
>So if I decide to keep the pump on all the time, do I keep the nutes the same strength?
It just seems a little high to me if they are being fed 24/7.

Yes you can keep the nutes the same strength. And while it may seem to you (from the tds of your res solution) that it's a little high for 24/7, from the plant's roots point of view they're actually seeing a weaker solution than they would normally see between watering cycles. That's because the tds of the water left at the roots between cycles will always get higher as the plants use it.

btw just because your e&f system fills and drains, doesn't mean that your plant's roots are seeing the benefit of a true e&f system. If the larger mass of your root structure ends up growing of the floor of the table, and not in the media, then for all intents and purposes your plant's roots are begging to receive an NFT type of water behavior.

UnaBonger - Thanks that's great info and background you've provided on E/F. When using grow rocks what container would you use? Net pots? Maybe net pots full of growrocks, then a layer of grow rocks in the table also? How deep a table for a 3x3' would you recommend?

Also, I take it that a cover for the table is mandatory?

morepot: Maybe the thread drifted a bit from his question and you're right, he can do what he asks about, I'm just trying to clarify the advantages and disadvantages of each system.

So E/F has the advantage of simplicity. Simplicity of equipment, fewer cords/hoses/etc. Less space required for equipment.

DWC's biggest advantage to me seems to be that you can grow your plants to monster bush size and keep plant numbers low. As for yield, I've seen both systems and it's my (anectodal!) belief that the difference in yield would not be a material amount.

Reuse - >When using grow rocks what container would you use?

Regular pots with plenty of hole space in the bottom so roots wont clog them. With e&f, solution will enter from the bottom of the pot and drain from the bottom. The more media the pot holds, the more incentive there is for roots to want to stay inside the pot, and it becomes less likely that there will be enough roots growing out of the bottom to clog holes. If you have a lot of roots growing outside of the pot, it's telling you your plant size and pot size aren't matched very well. There will always be some roots that find their way outside of the pot, but if 90%+ are inside the pot, that's a decent match between plants size and pot size. AF uses grow bags which have a few holes in the sides, only a few, nothing like a net pot. He uses between 1-2 gallons of grow rocks in each bag and grows plants in each bag that yield almost 5 oz each from 3 sq feet. He gets very few roots growing outside of the bags, surely less than 10% of the entire root structure for each plant, it's not even a handful. When he harvests he can grab the base of the plant's stem and pull the whole 2 gallon rootball out of the bag in one piece. The roots hold all of the grow rocks together in one mass, and only a few rocks on the top of the bag are loose enough to drop off. All the rest of the rocks are held together by the root mass. If you tried to grow that large of a plant in a small net pot, probably 90% of the roots would be growing outside of the pot instead of inside.

>Net pots? Maybe net pots full of growrocks, then a layer of grow rocks in the table also?

You don't really need all that open access through the sides of the pot with e&f. Net pots encourage roots to grow outside of the pot, which will eventually end up growing horizontally on the bottom of the tray. Then you've lost your e&f functionality and you're back to having most of your root mass wanting an NFT type of water behavior.

If you have to put more grow rocks in the table too, that's telling you your pots aren't big enough for the plant size you're growing. Though in some cases if a flat bottomed pot were put on a flat table it might block the free flow of water through the holes in the bottom of the pot. In that case, using some grow rocks to lift the pot off the tray's flat bottom would be a workaround.

>How deep a table for a 3x3' would you recommend?

Since we're talking about large plants, at least 6-8 inches of water depth. But that can make for one hell of a heavy table when it's flooded with water. 3 ft x 3 ft x 8 inches will hold about 40 gallons, less the water displaced by the media. That's one reason why a lot of tables aren't that deep, and why I don't like large e&f tables, and opt for for smaller trays that might hold just two or three pots. When you grow larger plants you can fill a canopy of maybe 10 sq ft from a tray that's only 8 inches wide and about 3 feet long, big enough to hold 3 pots with about 1-2 gallons of grow rocks each.

>Also, I take it that a cover for the table is mandatory?

For the most part, covers are advisable with any hydro system. On the tray (includes covering the pot top) and the reservoir. It cuts down evaporation, keeps the root zone humid, prevents air pruning of roots, and keeps light and debris out. Using pots with solid sides (not net pots) further isolates the root zone from the drier room environment.

The worst case scenario is a system with small net pots, growing plants too large for the pots, having most of the roots growing outside of the pots, and having it all in a large uncovered table.


>morepot: Maybe the thread drifted a bit from his question and you're right, he can do what he asks about, I'm just trying to clarify the advantages and disadvantages of each system.

>So E/F has the advantage of simplicity. Simplicity of equipment, fewer cords/hoses/etc. Less space required for equipment.

If you're resourceful you can build individual e&f modules that plug into your feed and drain system. The res doesn't need to be under your pots as it must be with DWC, it can be on the other side of the room. So you can add versatility to that list.<g>

>DWC's biggest advantage to me seems to be that you can grow your plants to monster bush size and keep plant numbers low. As for yield, I've seen both systems and it's my (anectodal!) belief that the difference in yield would not be a material amount.

You can grow monster bush size plants with e&f if you don't lock yourself into a shallow table system, and use a pot with enough grow rocks to grow large plants. I agree that yield would not be at issue, both systems are capable of yielding the same when operated by same capable hands.

[LordOvertoke]

nothing like a good debate eh?

i'm really fond of DWC but temps aren't an issue for me....a concrete floor underground makes a wonderful heat sink year round....as long as you keep air circulating the temps just hang there at 70.

maybe i'll give E/F a shot one of these days but DWC is cheap, easy and low maintenance if your res isn't too small.

LO

[c-ray]

dwc is a good option for med growers who have limited plant numbers (ie 25) but unlimited kw

[LordOvertoke]

yeah, it's the plant numbers that would kill you if you're not in compliance in a med situation.

indoor trees in that case. :D

LO

[country boy]

Those 100-gallon horse troughs make excellent 'tubs'.
No timers needed and if the air supply goes bad, they'll last a day or 3.
If you're lucky enough not to have heat issues-hard to beat.
did anyone say WHY you can't have SOG type #'s in DWC?
Roots grow quickly and in the moisture saturated enviroment, under the lid, they'll find the nute solution on their own.


cb

[hydrorascal]

Ohh yes !!! a 100 gallon DWC in SOG... easy to see 50ish plants in there.
Lots of good potential candidates here for the tub too...
http://www.tufftubs.com/htdocs/plinoval.htm

The top for one of these could be made in sections as shown in the Scrog forum. 1/4" sheet of pvc in 4 - 12" sections across the 51" length of a KMT100... a perpetual SOG setup...

[GrowGreen]

did anyone say WHY you can't have SOG type #'s in DWC?

you can, but it’s a PITA... your married to the placement of the plants. Roots quickly become one mass. Sure you could make some over engineered dolly/wheeled system, but why.. Ebb & Flow is the Tempo.. :D
HL, don’t you run e/f in the summer?

Too bad gypsynewbie isn’t here to share his experience with the DWC SOG
I believe he coined the name FOG “Forest of Green”


GG

[country boy]

AFOAF, who knew somebody, said s/he saw the biggest pull ever off a 2x4 tub (basically 1/2 a 1K, give or take) 11-13 plants, mostly big funk, or the like...
but that was during a cold winter...and there may have been a bit of lighting overlap...

If 1 were to use ebb flow, let's say if you don't have decent cooling, damn it,
then you still have the problem of plant movement , if a screen is used to support good bud support...

I saw GN's 'FofG'... to each his own...

I can't agree more about huge root masses being a pain in the ass, but a 3 inch pot of corn is easily taken care of and that root ball makes great compost.
but cleaning GALLONS of corn to remove the roots is SUCH a bitch....
and coir just doesn't seem to be a viable option...

rascal-seems that insulation sheeting works best-the kind that's shiny on 1 side...2 7/8's bit for 3 inch cups. those are expensive bits, don't chew them up on plywood, pvc, etc...use a drill to start the hole and finish with a saber saw

cb

[c-ray]

round these parts some folks are using virgin fir sawdust as a direct replacement for rockwool, wicks the same and same pH, cheap or free, fully biodegradeable

talked to a guy today who swears by crushed granite, for the trace minerals

[hydrorascal]

cb... Ive used the "cheep tool guy down the block" hole saws for a long time. A set of 3/4 to 5" hole saws only runs about 10 to 15 bucks and saves soo much time.

Tried the sheet insulation and for me it is too weak especially when the idea is to use it over and over. Sheet plastic at around a 1/4" is almost always available from sign shops. Just picked up enough material for 3 tops plus some other things going on for a whole whopping $8

[country boy]

rascal...do those 'cheap' hole saw sets come with a 2 7/8's?
And yup, the insulation sheets are usually, 1-off's since getting a 3 inch net pot out with a big root mass is almost impossible.

cb

[hydrorascal]

CB... 2 1/2 or 3" at least in my cheepie bulldog set.

Might make ya consider changing to 2" net pots.. if the 2 1/2" doesnt work for ya....

Also... if your root mass is an issue.. which is verrrry common, just raise the top and cut the root mass at the net pot base.

I see ya have found the same thing with insulation sheets I did. The trick is to hit a few sign shops... what ya are looking for is scrap or old signs. We usually dont need a full 4x8 sheet. My last trip I got a 'bad' sign, 24x27 and a 23x48 piece. $8 for the 2 pieces. 1/4" pvc is very good for a 20x20ish size setup.

For a larger one... if it flexes too much for ya, just screw a piece of 1/2"pvc pipe underneath to stop the flex.

[Carpet Muncher]

but cleaning GALLONS of corn to remove the roots is SUCH a bitch.... and coir just doesn't seem to be a viable option...

GG.. what medium are you using now? have you ever used just rw cubes? (seems so kiss?) for simplicity sake, i would like to switch to e/f, but the thought of digging through all those root balls to reclaim the medium isn't very appealing.. been there.

[country boy]

Rascal,
We're on the same page!
3 inch net pots seem to be the 'standard'-hopefully, at maturity, that stem should damn near fill the pot...
Remember, i was referrring to a big horse trough. Trying to move plants after root growth has accelerated is a pain-always seem to get tangled in the air lines...

Those cheapies have their place but a trip to Ace will give you the 'correct' size bit for around $20.

A decent 'frame' will keep the weight off the cover-let's hope 1 is needed to support the crop...

Coir, sawdust, rockwool, all SCREAM fungus knants...

cb

[Carpet Muncher]

cb.. you haven't lived until you've had fungus gnats in dwc. :)

[GrowGreen]

Hey CM, good to see you again..

I’m currently using RockWool Cubes.. Clone in the 1x1's, veg in 3 x3's. For bloom I set the 3x3's on top of 3 inches of hydroton in 5x5 kord pots. Everything except the kord pots goes into the trash after harvest..

Should have a show here soon in the SOG forum. :D:D

Peace
GG

[Greens]

The main advantage for DWC is for legal reasons. You can get the same yield from 10 DWC plants as you can from 30 in Ebb and Flow. The key to DWC is using strains that really grow into massive trees. My perfect strain is lemon swiss and it averages about a 1/2 pound per plant in DWC (we get one pounders all the time too). Super Silver Haze is another great strain for DWC.

Do you guys remember seeing bubba dutch's amazing SSH grows with his DWC buckets on OG? His yields looked absolutely insane and he'd only have like 10-15 plants in there.

[country boy]

Munch-just cause i can't spell 'gnats' doesn't mean i've never paid their rent.
Mosquito Dunks (or their equivilant) in the tub seem to keep #'s down and those 'No Pest Strips', give 1 pause...

GG-can't wait for your grow show! Had a couple of cases of 4x4's in the shed, but it seems ants find it a perfect environment...
36 under a 1K? What's the expected pull?

Greens-legal to some, not to others...
add in the veg time and we get back to the thread-starter's original point:

'imho, the single most significant factor on yield is plant numbers, not nutrients, or growing style.' -sorry, don't know how to 'quote' or put up those smiliey things

Genetics, lumens, nute delivery, not nesessarily in that order. It does seem that the correlation between #'s and veg time is being over looked...

[GrowGreen]

GG-can't wait for your grow show! Had a couple of cases of 4x4's in the shed, but it seems ants find it a perfect environment...
36 under a 1K? What's the expected pull?

Check the SOG Thread..

GG

[c-ray]

-sorry, don't know how to 'quote' or put up those smiliey things

this should be helpful:
https://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/misc.php?do=bbcode#quote

there is a drop down menu of smilies, make sure your cursor is in the appropriate place then click the smiley face button in the top of the message editor to open the menu, then click on the smilie you want to use :kind:

if you need any more help let me know

[hydrorascal]

if you are reeeeally into cheeeep... try an 8x12x36 rw slab. cuts into lots and lots of 2x2 cubes....

[country boy]

L-sorry your thread on IC may be closed due to 'lack of respect to a mod'...
Check the link from above-seems things have gotten 'ugly'...

Many good points were raised and answered or at least discussed.
If 1 were to care, it might be worth saving...

Frankly, it's kicking a dead horse on SO many levels...hurtback, DO content, 5-gallon buckets,Krusty, etc...

[Lucas]

For those who understand, no explanation is necessary, for those who do not understand, no explanation will be sufficient



Lucas EquusAltissimus

[ntstephenson]

I'm so glad this site is up and running... I was terribly afraid that BigToke and others would disgust you and you'd throw in the towel. Keep the faith, some of us do pay attention, and thank you for teaching me so much.

[mace]

I found the thread on IC nevertheless very interesting (before the dramas), some properties of former "magic" systems where quantified... nothing new under the sun ;)

I also found it very funny to read how people would argue that some systems are not circulating nutes over roots, instead they would circulate them with a very high flowrate and thats something complete different... :D

Thanks again for the oppertunity to learn Lucas, you never fail to amaze :)

mace

[hydrorascal]

Lucas has probably forgotten more about hydro that I will ever learn.

[Lucas]

thanks for the warm homecoming friends

so, to recap
what goes in the against collumn for DWC, also goes against other constantly wet systems, which includes bubblers (interlinked or solo standing), nft, aero, and biobuckets (a version of interlinked bubblers that uses high nutes flow rates instead of airpumps, and an airdrop for the nutes)

1. Oxygen delivery and root zone temperature control.

The temperature of the water in a bubbler is a problem over 72, but you can overcome it by raising flow rates of the water above 2000 gph per 1k. Other strategies to keep nutes cool include insulation of the res, placing the res on a concrete floor, using stronger airpumps, up to 1 watt of airpump power per gallon of res... Or, blowing air into the res to cool it down, or using a chiller..


2. Plant numbers, veg time, and annualized yield

although many people report yields over 2 pounds per 1k from 1-10 large plants per 1k, they are not efficient gardens in terms of yield per year, unless veg time does not occur in the bloom area. For example, I know of a grower who got 2.5 pounds per 1k, from 5 weeks veg time. Thats equivalent to 1.4 pounds per 1k had vegging strategies not required vegging in the bloom room.

Therefore, I will make the outrageous statement, that people who use higher plant numbers get higher yields, BOTH per crop, AND per time. But, dont grow high plant numbers unless you are legal, cause you might get in higher trouble for higher plant numbers..


3. The Nitrogen cycle, tap water, pH, and nutes strength

popular mythology attributes the dubious success of biobuckets to managing the nitrogen cycle, use of tap water, non andjusted pH, and low nutes concentration. There is even a claim that the Lucas formula does not work for biobuckets.

However, the Nitrogen cycle does not apply unless you have raw sewage in your res. Tap water wont work, unless its below 200ppm, pH wont need adjusting, unless your tap is too hard or your nutes too weak.

Beneficial bacteria are oxygen loving bacteria. They will be present IF there is sufficient oxygen in the nutes. But the plants dont need the bacteria, they just need the oxygen.

Bacteria are for digesting raw sewage, which does not exist in bottled nutes (I hope). Bacteria have absolutely nothing to do with raising oxygen levels or flow rates. And it is oxygen levels that allows plants to survive warm nutes..


Now for the "in favor of" collumn for ebb flow

1. you can buy the whole system from a hydro store without ever having to build your own plumbing system or plant containers

2. it is very easy to keep the plants happy, even with 80F nutes, without chillers, airpumps, or high water flow rates. Because the ebb cycle sucks air into the root zone, plus the ebb cycle allows for humidity in the root zone to vaporize, producing extremely vigorous and healthy roots. Roots love humid air, it is ideal for acquiring dissolved oxygen.

3. a new grower is more likely to master 2 pounds a light with ebb flow than with bubblers, because all they have to do is load the table, no fancy training, no complex pruning to cope with excess veg time, no loss of productivity growing big plants for long time periods

4. ebb flow allows the removal of plants from a grow, in an emergency, very quickly and simply... just put the pots in a box and move them out.. this wont work with DWC or biobuckets, when you have to move heavy containers full of water and roots. Water is heavy.


I dont think any one system is better than another, they all have their pros and cons.

After years of advocating the "simplicity" of a bubbler, I have come full circle, back to old school ebb and flow. The main reason I now discount bubblers is because of the sensitivity to temperature, and the complexity introduced by adding fans to the res, increasing bubble power, or flow rates, or adding chillers, or plumbing a recirculating res into a bubbler system..

It is not my intention to create arguments or offend anyone who has other opinions, I just felt responsible, as a long time bubblehead, to call a hot res a spade. With bubblers, res heat is a Major issue to control for. With ebb flow, the temp of the nutes is harmless, because the roots spend most of their time in the ebb cycle, which acts like a swamp cooler for the roots.

hth
Lucas

[Greens]

Greens-legal to some, not to others...
add in the veg time and we get back to the thread-starter's original point:

'imho, the single most significant factor on yield is plant numbers, not nutrients, or growing style.' -sorry, don't know how to 'quote' or put up those smiliey things


Hey country boy, I wasn't trying to argue with the fact that more plants usually equals more buds. I was simply trying to say that you will get in much more trouble from pigs if they catch you with 100 small plants in your flower room and another 100 clones started up in another room compared to DWC where you might have 15-20 plants in the flower room and another 15-20 clones in another room. This is extremely important for medical growers to stay legal, but it is important for everyone who doesn't want to get in as much trouble if they are caught.

With DWC, for good yields year round you need both a flower and veg room. However, you don't need very many plants in them.

I see the advantages to SOG grows in E&F, but it is a mistake to discount the advantages of DWC.

Greens

[Deltanugz]

..

[Lucas]

hello DeltaNugz

I agree to disagree

> 'Sewage' will quickly decompose to Ammonia, which is also a key ingredient of most hydroponic nutrients. Ammonia is also food for for the beneficial nitrifying bacteria. Therefore, the nitrifying cycle DOES apply in any hydro system with the proper environmental conditions and a healthy dose of hydroponic nutrients.

Ammonia is a minor component of GH nutes, only 6% of the Nitrogen comes from Ammonia.

since there are no fish in a hydro reservoir, the nitrogen cycle does not apply, as there is no ammonia being produced by the fish that are not present

a hydroponics reservoir is not at all operating under the same ammonia inputs as a fishtank

I agree completely that fish tanks need a healthy bacterial colony, to neutralize the ammonia produced by fish, but not a hydro res. Plants do not produce ammonia like fish do.

Lucas

[c-ray]

split the pea gravel/ebb & flow questions into a new post here -> https://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/showthread.php?t=512

[Lucas]

Im moving the biobucket debate to its own thread here:

https://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/showthread.php?p=4075#post4075

[NSG]

After years of advocating the "simplicity" of a bubbler, I have come full circle, back to old school ebb and flow. The main reason I now discount bubblers is because of the sensitivity to temperature, and the complexity introduced by adding fans to the res, increasing bubble power, or flow rates, or adding chillers, or plumbing a recirculating res into a bubbler system..

It is not my intention to create arguments or offend anyone who has other opinions, I just felt responsible, as a long time bubblehead, to call a hot res a spade. With bubblers, res heat is a Major issue to control for. With ebb flow, the temp of the nutes is harmless, because the roots spend most of their time in the ebb cycle, which acts like a swamp cooler for the roots.

Hi all, as someone who practiced lots of Lucas advice for years, I feel I may have a unique perspective on this topic. Allow me to share...

The first setup used was pots and dirt. That quickly changed to a DWC setup after reading more about the science behind it. I believe it was about 50-100 bux and a few hours later, a decent SCROG with DWC was achieved. It took a lot of reading and design work to make due with a minimal budget. I think the number one drawback of the setup was ineffective heat dissipation. I chime in with Lucas there. Anything that would prove effective for heat removal would require alteration of the structure or an expensive A/C setup. With the heat in the DWC, there were oxygen problems in the roots (root rot), and that ended the vigorousness of the plants after a few weeks.

On the other hand, the mom setup used was an ebb and flow purchased from a local hydro store. The initial setup costed more, but in the end it was much less work to maintain. It was literally fire and forget if you wanted. Under fluoro's, the moms could be trimmed and the reservoir adjusted and topped up, and the plants would be fine for nearly 3 weeks straight without any attention.

One other aspect that might be worth mentioning is that the ebb n flow was silent. No bubbles, powerheads, etc to make any noise. The ebb n flow pump is silent, and with tubes to and from the drain of the table into the reservoir, the system can be very stealth. A major bonus over DWC if there are thin walls and curious neighbors. I know I benefitted from this stealth aspect, and I never worried about ambient temperatures at all.

All in all, I agree that an Ebb n Flow is more versatile and it's easier than training plants on a SCROG, and it's easier to optimize for plant genetics and idiosyncrasies than a straight DWC SOG, or as GN says: FOG. :) With an elaborate setup like GyspyNewbie's DWC, the ambient temps were not a problem, and the root systems of the plants were incredible; they were completely optimized with ph, temperature, oxygen and nutrients. Those plants were the fastest and most vigorous that I've seen. However, from a KISS aspect, the Ebb n Flow is my cup of tea though.

And as usual, Lucas is absolutely right in his conclusion. Glad to see you again Lucas! :worthy:

[Lucas]

> With the heat in the DWC, there were oxygen problems in the roots (root rot), and that ended the vigorousness of the plants after a few weeks.

very good point
it is lack of oxygen that causes root rot

so many people invest in root saving additives, while missing the not so obvious point that a DWC has problems during the summer because of lower dissolved oxygen in warmer water

you never hear of an ebb flow grower complain of root rot, its usually someone in a bubbler bucket.

> Lucas is absolutely right in his conclusion

thanks for the kind words, but, the credit belongs to my guru GrowGreen for enlightening me about the heat tolerance of Ebb and Flow

Lucas

[ViRedd]

Lucas ...

You and GG are the best. Thanks for the info in this thread. This has been the worst summer for my grow ever ... now I know why.

Anyone: Do you guys see any advantage heat wise in aero over ebb & flow? After this summer, and losing all my plants (grrr!) I'm gonna change tactics. You guys like Ebb & flow, but I saw an aero grow recently using the same sq. footage I have and the yield was terrific. I can convert to either aero or E&F easily. Whatcha guys think? Thanks. :)

NSG ...

Great to see you posting here, Bro. Hope all is well with you. :)

Vi

[country boy]

During this hot summer, we all have heat on our minds.

But if temps are right, DWC works just fine and is much easier to plumb for automatic top-offs.

Vi-you might look into a chiller or the highly touted 'split AC' systems...

[Lucas]

hello Vi

imho, aero has the same heat issues, or worse, as DWC, because the pipes dont get to breathe much and heat accumulates in them

however, I agree with Country Boy, air conditioning is the very best way to controll heat in a grow year round

many people skip a cycle growing in the summer if they cant keep temps in the grow below 80F

Lucas

[kisanth]

Hey there Vi, aero is much less forgiving when it comes to high temps than E&F is (maybe even less forgiving than DWC?). Just ask anyone whose tried an aero-coli (DDoc).

GL,
k.

[joe6pack]

Ok I read most of this thread and I'm ready to chime in on my experience with DWC.

I like DWC/bubblers for my situation as a microgrower.

I grow under a single 150 watt HPS in a small cab I have two 2 gallon buckets. The cabinet is in my bedroom which is climate controlled by central A/C - my ventilation ensures temperatures are not much above ambient.

so 2 buckets don't take much maintence. my ambient temps range around 68 or lower and my air pump is outside of the cabinet so it's pumping 68 degree or cooler air into the 2 buckets all the time.

Growing two plants I average around 3 ounces - so no 1 gram/watt. total veg time 2 weeks under floros in another cabinet and then a week under the 150 before flipping to 12/12

I've also tried growing four plants in two buckets, all of the same strain, and was able to considerably cut down veg time to basically nill and achieve nearly same results as a single plant with more veg so I found with DWC you can achieve that gram per period of time ratio of SOG by increasing plant numbers to 2 or more clones pre bucket ( I think 3 might be ideal ). However they'd all need to be of the same strain. The roots did grow together into one huge mass that half filled my 2 gallon bucket.

So a couple of more thoughts --

in my neck o'the woods there is no med laws but there is actually a misdemanor cultivation charge (as opposed to felony) that my grow would fit into for at least the first 1/2 of the flower cycle. So that is why I grow with my little 150.

so I did try a top feed ebb/flow in my cab with 6" RW cubes using a oil drain pan as resevoir, it held about 2 gallons which wasn't enough for more than a few days as the pump kept running dry. I was suprised how quickly roots grew out of the bottom of the cubes and it was like only two weeks of veg. How do you ebb and flow guys keep the roots from getting too big?

I swapped for DWC and have liked the simplicity of it since then.

With two buckets I can run two strains at the same time that like different nutrient levels. I can also run two strains that flower for different periods of time.

With separate buckets you also avoid cross contaimation of root disease.

I've also found that I can use smaller buckets to veg and then just move up to a bigger bucket when it's time to flower. Without going into specifics of how I do it but I start with 2.5 quart buckets allowing me to fit 5 plants into my little space - this is useful if I am starting seeds and don't know the sex yet - I can get past first two weeks of flower in these little 2.5 quart buckets and then I pick the two best females and plop them into bigger buckets and throw the scrog screens on - zero transplant stress they just grow bigger and bigger.

So in closing IMVHE

1. for the hobby/head grower like me DWC is really easy to get up and running and adaptable to allow starting in a smaller bucket and moving up as you go.

2. If you've only got a couple of buckets maintence isn't a problem (lucas I think you made this point in the opening) and easy to setup.

3. with separate buckets you have the advantage of tailoring nutrient levels to each plant plus root disease should not spread.

4. Putting more plants per bucket in DWC can achieve higher yields with shorter veg time.

Actually I could imagine using a single tub holding around 10 gallons with 6 plants in my space of 15" wide x 25" long I think this could yield well with no veg. hmm...

[ihaveworms]

no shit.. this is the best thread i have read in some time...

Lucas.. again, good to see you man... sorry, if i was confusing in what i was saying.. i was talking in the situation i was in, and what i have worked with- but when it comes to technical issues as nute uptake and bacteria.. i am a lost soul brutha.. haha... but, am very interested in reading about it.. and the pros and cons...

again, great thread, and i will be reading on..

worms

[dcyans]

Lucas ...

You and GG are the best. Thanks for the info in this thread. This has been the worst summer for my grow ever ... now I know why.

Anyone: Do you guys see any advantage heat wise in aero over ebb & flow? After this summer, and losing all my plants (grrr!) I'm gonna change tactics. You guys like Ebb & flow, but I saw an aero grow recently using the same sq. footage I have and the yield was terrific. I can convert to either aero or E&F easily. Whatcha guys think? Thanks. :)

NSG ...

Great to see you posting here, Bro. Hope all is well with you. :)

Vi

With summers heat and no chillers aero does indeed perform extremely well! Although yield may have suffered slightly I have had great success even with res temps as warm as 80F with the addition of FloraShield (not hydroguard or any other microbe acting soloution). It's worked well and was a helluva lot cheaper than a chiller although that would be the way to go alright! GL bro
P.S. when I talk aero I'm talking aero-hydroponic which is a hybrid and IME works to my advantage. In case you don't know aero-hydro you have not only the air gap but submerged roots which really does help in more ways than one.

[ViRedd]

Well, thanks for the responses to my question guys. Air conditioning is not an option as my cabinet is in a screened in porch. This is the first summer I've had plants die, but also the first summer the heat has been this high too. Inside cabinet temps hovered around 105 to 110 degrees, res temps at 80. Roots browned up and the plants died. Now I'm thinking some kind of root disease. I have seedlings and cuttings ready to go ... as soon as this darned heat spell breaks. Geeze, 119 degrees in the Valley a couple of days ago. This is like living in the freakin' Sahara desert! How are you Valley guys keeping up with this?

Vi

[dcyans]

Well first we take our shirts and tie them in a knot and of course spandex ya know, like a must! Ice cubes down thuh pants also feels absolutely awesum fur sure! ;) Like ya know it's totally totally hot over at thuh club and we are just eatin' it up bitchin' time! ;)

[Lucas]

> res temps at 80. Roots browned up and the plants died.

sorry to hear that. it makes sense though, at 80degrees, its hard to have enough oxygen in the water, though you could try increasing the bubble power to 1 watt of airpump for every 1 gallon of reservoir water volume..

how many watts of airpump did you have for how many gallons of res, when the plants roots turned brown? Im guessing about 1 watt for every 5 gallons.. which is not enough when res temps go over 70F

> Now I'm thinking some kind of root disease

please dont get sidetracked trying to solve a "disease" problem. It will lead you to additives that are supposed to help prevent root rot, when what is really going on is lack of oxygen due to overheating

in high heat, you would be better off NOT in a Bubbler. Try a system with intermittent irrigation, so the roots can dissipate heat by evaporation from the root zone medium. For example Ebb flow grorox, or handwatered 50/50 coco/grorox.

growing in a bubbler at 100+ degrees without air conditioning is a non-starter.

Lucas

[Deltanugz]

..

[JackStraw]

Good thread. I have used bubblers with great success at times, but the plants really do go to shit if the water gets too hot. A chiller is the only solution I'm starting to think. Fans blowing on the water, etc., work OK but don't fix the problem.

Maybe I will give ebb n flow a shot.

[lazi]

Hi Lucas, some years back you advised me re a root rot problem in my tubbler. Was my fault, used heaters coz the res was too cool and bingo! root rot. Still had trouble with the rot when the temps dropped so according to your posts on this thread they weren't getting enough oxygen but it was a big airpump, 145 litres per minute. (Res was 700 litres.) Loads of bubbles in the res but obviously not enough where they count, at the roots. Beginning to think the big problem with bubblers is the bubbles, they look good but don't do enough. Isn't it true that most of the DO comes from the bubbles breaking surface? Maybe more roots = less bubbles breaking on the surface.

I'm thinking the movement of water is very important. Ebb 'n Flow, Krusty buckets, nft, drip feed systems etc. but bubblers can get standing pockets of water in the root mass that don't get moved. Almost said stagnant, hope this makes sense.

Belt and braces for me now. Buckets in a line and pumped into a controller res plus airpump. Total volume 200 litres, what size waterpump is enough on its own? (20" drop into controller res.)

btw, using heaters aside, never had a temp problem with my bubblers but they were kitchen bins with plywood lids, black Rubbermaids look like they'll soak up the heat.

[Lucas]

> I'm thinking the movement of water is very important.

total agreement

> bubblers can get standing pockets of water in the root mass that don't get moved. Almost said stagnant, hope this makes sense.

total agreement
bear in mind also, that in a bubbler, as root mass increases, remaining water volume decreases, which in turn means less oxygen, more risk of root rot in a stagnant container.

It would most deffinitely help to have a recirculating system, if the roots overtake the majority of the root container, as is the case in recirculating "biobuckets"

> Total volume 200 litres, what size waterpump is enough on its own?

the most aggressive bubble spec I use is 1 watt of airpump power per gallon of water. I have not calculated that spec to litres of air pumped per minute

so for your 200 litres of reservoir, I recommend an airpump that consumes about 50 watts of power. This will allow for maximum oxygenation in heat challenged water

Lucas

[lazi]

Already got the airpump lucas, the 145Lmin, have taken it into my head to also recirculate the water ala biobuckets and water drop as well. Makes maintainance easier. Was wondering what size waterpump would be enough on its own. 1500L/hour maybe?

[ntstephenson]

Hello lazi, if you will excuse my use of english measurement instead of metric...

I grow using "bio-buckets" in eight 5 gallon buckets under 1kW. I rely solely on water drop (10 inches) back to the reservoir for aeration. When using relatively small DWC containers like 5 gallon buckets, one should shoot for 10 to 15 water exchanges per hour (or 4 to 6 minutes to fill up all buckets from empty to overflow point. I would caution against simply dividing water pump rating by the number of buckets to estimate water flow, as unfortunately this figure is affected greatly by pumping height and length of the feed line to the buckets, as well as resistance along the feed line. I have found in my system (40 gallons under the lights, 3 feet of head height, 3/4" pressure loop feeding equal 1/2" feed lines to each bucket, and pump is eight feet away from the farthest bucket) that an 800 gph pump is marginally sufficient, while a 1200 gph pump is more than adequate.

If you are aerating in the reservoir with bubbles, than this will reduce your need for a noisy water drop to aerate the nutrient solution, but this does not reduce the need for rapid circulation. If anything, I would suggest getting the largest water pump you can afford (within reason) as 5 gallon buckets make poor DWC bubblers without rapid circulation.

My two cents on "bio-buckets" is this: Hurtback came up with an awesome design for recirculating DWC, but placed too much importance on "beneficial bacteria" that made the system work well, when in actual fact, it was superior aeration in the reservoir due to the waterfall effect and rapid circulation that makes the system work. I dislike the term bio-buckets for this reason, as there is nothing fundamentally "bio" about them. There is nowhere near enough surface area for meaningful bacteria colonization without the addition of supplemental colonization points like a huge bio-filter or a large fluidized sand filter. Regardless, unless you are growing with partially decomposed organic nutrients like metanaturals, beneficial bacteria are not required in hydro.

Another key point to remember: if your buckets are relatively the same size as standard 5 gallon buckets, then your feed line needs to be placed right next to and just above your overflow line on each bucket, not at oppposite ends. If placed opposing each other, flow will occur across the top of the bucket, leaving the bottom stagnant. Also, use a 90 degree elbow inside the bucket to direct flow down to the bottom of the bucket. Nutrient solution flows in and down through the elbow, across the bottom of the bucket, up the other side, and then back across the top to the overflow. If your buckets are shaped differently than standard 5 gallon buckets, then you will need to experiment with food coloring to find feed and drain line positions that will sufficiently circulate the nutrient solution. (I have a friend who uses 3.5 gallon buckets with smaller plants plumbed the same way)

[lazi]

Thanks for the help, ordered a big water pimp and rethought the plumbing arrangement. In at the bottom, out from the other side near the top.

I'm commited now, money all spent but I've been thinking about this thread and the points lucas made against bubblers. Quick search suggests bubblers yield more than ebb 'n flow but... growers only count the wattage of their bulbs. Are my 2 x 400w hps with 300w airpump and 150w waterpump really going to do better than a 3 x 400w ebb 'n flow? I doubt it but the power bill will be similar.

[DOZEE]

any links to a good dwc grow thread thinking ding a 4000w grow soon and id like to use less plants ..

[Lucas]

a 400w DWC can be done with a 20gallon grow res, which could be a tuff tote from Kmart or even a sterilite tub (sterilites are flimsy though they work)

but since this thread is against bubblers..

the ebb flow system I like for large plants is the Multiflow
http://www.atwaterhydro.net/Multiflow.html

it is overkill for a 400w system.. which can be done easily with DWC

otoh, for larger grows the multiflow is easier to maintain than large gallon DWC

the main problem with DWC in large grows is the very large volume of water, and the fact the water gets too warm

the multiflow uses ebb flow cycles, so the plants are not at risk for the problems DWC has with too warm water..

Lucas