DWC help neede please

[Alaska]

I have also posted this at icmag and hg420 if anyone cares to look

Alaska


Hello folks, I am in the need of some serious expertise please.

I have never grown DWC or any other hydro method, besides one DWC crop of cucumbers and tomatoes last summer. Recently, a friend of mine asked me to help him set up a rather good sized DWC system. Literally no expense was spared in this garden, and the first crop yeiled a measly 14 oz from 2k worth of light! Ouch! I don't even wanna think about the gpw on that one(it was cinderella 99 f1, and I can pull 15 oz from a 600 watt light, and ~24 from a 1k in soilless with no problemo, so I think it is not a genetics issue) Needless to say, all parties involved are very disappointed! So, I will attempt to outline what has been done and the garden specifications, and I can get informational parameters on any aspect of the grow with no problem, and I might even be able to pull a couple of pics, but I would have to borrow a camera, as I dont have one.

There is a total of 4000 watts for blooming, comprised of 2 1k's on a ballast flip, giving two flowering areas of 2k apiece. Both flowering rooms are prefabricated indoor greenhouse made of black canvas on the outside, and white poly plastic on the inside. The model we are using is the "Hydrohut Deluxe", see http://www.hydrohut.com/ or http://www.hydrohuts.com/. There are two huts for flowering. Both hold two 1000 watt HPS lamps, with vented hoods, with heat vented out of the hut. Both flowering huts hold 12 plants total, or six plants per 1k. The biggest problem seems to be in the flowering rooms, but we will get there in a minute. The veg room is comprised of 1k with 12 dwc 5g buckets and a clone machine and some fluoro's.



What we know - Garden Specifications

2k in Hydrohuts w/ vented hoods - hoods have 6" flanges and ducting

Exhaust Fan Speed is 440 cfm and there is one exhaust fan running for two lights.

12 DWC 5 gallon Buckets per Hut. - Built according to the specs @ overgrow under the articles section by Train1

Nutrients are Botanicare Pure Blend Pro Grow and Bloom and cal mag - This is the only area that I have varied from Train1's technique. He uses GH Lucas Formula, while I really like PBP for my soilless, so that was my recommendation. Also Cal-Mag is added to the water as suggested on the label because reverse osmosis water is used to clean nasty well water.

CO2 enrichment is present, though at times, there is no added co2 as cylinders must be changed. This happened for a several week period towards the last segment of the crop, so I think the hut is so tight that without enrichment, you don't get much fresh air (btw, I duct taped up the vents in the hut to save the co2, so there really was no venteliation or "fresh" air for a portion of the grow)

Co2 is controlled in both huts with the Green Air Products CDM and CDDS electronic CO2 sensor and kept at 1000 ppm.

Plants are planted in 5" net pot 5gallon bucket lids, planted in hydrotom. Both Pots and lids are black

RO water

pH kept ~6 with Bluelab pH pen using gh pH up and down

Bluelab Truncheon for ED and TDS readings

Huts usually run 80 degrees during the on cycle....

Water is about 70 degrees




Next, I will attempt to outline the feeding schedule. This is not exact, but a very close approximation. pH is always adujusted to 6.0, and water is changed every 7-10 days.

Week 1 & 2 of Veg - Into 20 gallons water - 3 1/2 oz cal-mag(1 tsp /g), 10 oz PBP Grow (1 Tbs/g), pH to 6.0

Flowering
Week 1 - into 18 gallons water - 3 oz cal-mag(1 tsp/g), 10 oz PBP Grow(1 Tbs/g), pH to 6.0

Week 2 - into 18g - 3 oz cal-mag, 5 oz PBP Grow(1/2 Tbs/g), 10 oz PBP Bloom (1 Tbs/g), pH to 6.0

Week 3 - 7 - into 18g - 3 oz Cal-mag, 12 - 16 oz (1 - 1 1/2 Tbs/g), pH to 6.0

Week 8 - Plain water for flush, pH to 6.0



Ok, now that you're read all that, its time for the problem at hand. Why in the hell are the yeilds SO LOW for my friend ?? To recap, he go ~14 oz dry from 2k worth of light and 12 plants. Thats the harvest from the first hut. The huts harvest time is starggered so one hut is harvested every month.

The second hut is in even worse shape than the firs one was at this stage in the game. Hut #2 has never had co2, as the tanks were all depleted for hut #1. Hut #2's vents were also taped up, as it was awaiting co2, when disaster struck. My friend fell ill, and was not able to check on his plants for several days. Well, as fate may have it, the day he got sick is the same day he was supposed to do a resevoir change..........so, the water level in the dwc buckets was already low......and my friend was laid up in bed the next couple of days, and I had no idea there was trouble afoot. When I went over there next, he said he thought the lights were too close, as the plants had started wilting and having necrosis and chlorosis (browning dead tissue and yellowing tissue) on the tops of the plants. What had happened is that the plants used up almost all of the water in the buckets, without using all the fertilizer, and thus running the fertilizer concentraion through the roof, and frying the plant. At this point, this particulat batch was about 2 weeks into flower, and had gone one extra week in the veg room. Well, since the wilting incident, these plants have all but stopped growing. Watering and water changes have commenced as normal, but still there is no improvement in the plants general health, and no real bud formation, and nowhere near what is should be as a plant that has been flowering for five weeks. CO2 cylinders have been filled, and one will be added to this hut to see if any recovery is possible.



So, what I am really looking for response wise is some help....

.Any ideas as to why the first harvest would be so low as ~ 7 oz per 1k?

Any ideas as to what I can do to salvage and mayve yeild something from the burned plants?

Any ideas for future healthy plants, as there is a hut full of them right now, and they are looking good 1 week into flowering with no signs of real problems yet.



Thanks for any and all ideas, suggestions, questions, criticism, and anything else you want to throw my way. :)

Thanks and be safe and enjoy life

Alaska

[BlueCelisWhite1]

Wish I could help more Alaska but the only input I can give is eliminate the indiviual 5 gal. buckets.

There IMO is zero room for error when manually maintaining 5gal. buckets with DWC. I played hell for a good year or so when using 5gal. Save some hassel and get into the larger tubs 30 gal + ones. Bigger the better.

Plants in 5 gal. with subsatntial root systems use up so much water that if not watched daily the solution can reach toxic levels if the plants are taking up more water than nutes which usually is the case. Kinda like the roots sitting in nothing but nutrient salts.

And the condensing of the solution due to plants uptaking more water than nutes and not efficiently adding back water along with higher temps and or radiant heats and light intensitys can be devestating to your plants.

Sounds like your room temps are not really out of line at 80. 4k of hps is pretty intense if in a smaller growing area. I didnt see room size in your post but maybe I missed it.

Another thing I wonder about is you say you are exhausting the hoods but are or how are you replenishing the room with fresh air? I see you are using CO2 but are you regularly replenishing the room with fresh air? Even with the CO2 I think plants are in need and deff. benefit from fresh air allowing them to breath if you will.

Sound s deff. like the plants went through a bit of shock and will take time to bounce back. Some take longer than others and Ive seen plants that didnt recover from diff shocks.

Beings you were well into flowering when the mishaps occured that could well be your answer right there. Ive had things happen mid flowering overf fert etc.. and the plants yields were basically reduced by half atleast compaired to the sisters in the room who maybe didnt experience the shock the poor yielders were.

But one thing for sure I would do yourself a favor and start to use larger tubs unless you can come up with a self filling rez or something.

Wish I could be of more help. Looks like our newest member is the man himself "Lucas" there is no one I would trust more to help figure out the best way to set up especially if you are attempting to use ferts at or simialir to the "lucas form" maybe see if you can get his attentiuon and see if he could help. Im betting he could and will!

GL bud!

[Alaska]

Thanks BCW, I really appreciate it.

I was able to snap some photos, and hope to have them uploaded later this evening.

Since then I have changed to the Lucas formula, with pyrosal and noticed a little improvement

Room size is just a little bit bigger than 4x8 per 2k

No fresh air is ever put in , as we got the $700 co2 controlled which keeps it at 1200ppm at all times. If the soil plants I put in there don't work out, then I will ditch the co2 and go for massive air exchange, I gotta get a crop in. Should had about 5+lbs by now, as the grow has been goin on since Jan 1., and we don't even have one :( Major sad

Thanks again and be safe

Alaska

[LordOvertoke]

Alaska...here's what i do fwiw.

15ml per gallon of PBP Bloom + 5ml per gallon Cal-Mag.

i veg in GH using the Lucas formula cause it's just too easy not to but i do like to flower with PBP....the only other thing i add is Liquid Karma but it's not a nutrient, just a flavor enhancer of sorts.

you really need to know the temps of each res....around 70 isn't good enough....you only have a few degrees margin of error and i suspect that's where the grow may have gone wrong.

68 - 70 is optimal, anything over 72 is trouble.

extra bubbles will allow for a little fudge factor but still not much.

hth,

LO

[Lucas]

> Any ideas as to why the first harvest would be so low as ~ 7 oz per 1k?

sure, in your own words:

" at times, there is no added co2 as cylinders must be changed. This happened for a several week period towards the last segment of the crop"

"running the fertilizer concentraion through the roof, and frying the plant"

"12 DWC 5 gallon Buckets per Hut"

"Water is about 70 degrees "


So, to recap the problems with plant health, too little CO2, too strong nutes, too much maintenance not performed, too warm.

My guess is the plants were not healthy, as demonstrated by the poor yield.

It sounds like it gets very hot in the tent, and there is no fresh CO2


Suggestions to get on track

1. CO2 MUST be present
2. res maintenance is required to prevent nute Overdose
3. a CO2 enhanced room, which is sealed, usually also needs a source of cooling, like an airconditioner.


To eliminate the maintenance issues with buckets, consider converting to ebb flow

hth
Lucas

[LordOvertoke]

it goes without saying that Lucas is right. ;)

i don't use CO2 at all but what i do use is great fresh air exchange so a fresh supply of CO2...active intake and active exhaust along with lots of fans.

one thing i like to do is have a few extra 3" netcups in the tub to allow for some passive cooling, along with a fan blowing over the top of the tub....keeps any fungus gnats away too should that be a problem.

nutes are the easy part....get your light, air and water right and nutes won't be a problem.

best of luck,

LO

[Alaska]

Ok, heres some pics of the leaf damage, and maybe if its on this comp, a room shot

[Alaska]

The last pic above is a healthy dirt shot that is the next crop. This crop (dirt)has since developed the same problems as the others, so I have opened the hut on both ends, turned co2 off, amped up the phosphorus, and added a nice oscillating fan.


A

[LordOvertoke]

how much pH up and down are you using?

have you calibrated your pH meter?

i'd try running closer to 5.5 than to 6....mine are usually getting hungry by the time it drifts up to 6.

hang in there bro. :)

LO

[Alaska]

I am using a bluelab truncheon, regularly calibrated. We have scrapped the DWC for the summer, as we don't want to fight the res heat, and we must get a good harvest in.

I water the dirt once without any pH up or down, as I do in my own personal grow, and the plants are looking better already(see my pukeberry thread in the Budshots forum).

I don't use excessive amounts, maybe 1 tablespoon in a 5g bucket or so, but lately using the pyrosol requires much more pH up.

The DWC's pictured look much worse than that now, as the relay switch for the fan did not kick one night, and when I went over there, temps were in the upper 90's, and the plants are fried. One sucky thing after another.

I have decided to throw pH out the window with the dirt plants following exactly the same recipe I do at home(to see some of my personal plants, look in the budshots forum under the pukeberry thread). It is as follows

Grow: per gallon
1T PBP Grow
1t Thrive alive b1
1T blackstrap molassass

Bloom per gallon
1 or 1 1/2 T PBP Bloom
1t pk 13-14
1T blackstrap molassass

Thanks for the words of encouragement lord overtoke, I appreciate it :)


Be safe all and thanks for helping

A

[Glass Man]

I see that you removed the CO2 and opened both the tents for fresh air. I think that's a good move.

I think, and am sure i'll agree, you guys jumped into the deep end before learning to swim. There are things to learn, and "one step at a time" is usually the best way to approach complex projects like this one.

I am using a Keef Treeez designed SWC Grow Tunnel. It is 4x8 and has a recirculating "shallow grow table" which is 1 to 3 inches deep. The res is about 110 gallons, and the solution is sprayed constantly through 6 spray nozzles located ate each end of the table. The plants are in 2" net pots. The table/grow field is covered with rigid fiberglass "shower board" drilled for the 2" net pots. My res is under the table, but should be in a cooler location if it gets hot where you live. I'm not using CO2 yet. The tunnel has one large full-size (4x8) reflector, and full mylar covered wall panels. Air circulation is constant.
Something like this might be a better setup than dealing with a bunch of 5 gallon individual buckets. One resevoir to maintain is much more stable and simple.

Good luck,
GM

[joe6pack]

I second the PH around 5.5 instead of 6.0 comment. My DWC plants are always happy with PH around 5.5 or even a little under.

What did you use for airpumps? I use a single 60 gallon air pump for two 2 gallon DWC buckets. For a 5 gallon bucket you would need a 40 gallon air pump per bucket. Also how often did you change air stones.

An idea that I use to keep the res cooler than the grow room is putting my airpumps out side of the grow space. This way they are always pumping cool air into the buckets which keeps the res cooler.

Also on res temps you should paint the buckets and lids white or cover with aluminum duct tape.

Res maintence is key in DWC. I rarely let my buckets go more than 7 days without changing the nutrients completely.

As some one else said DWC in individual buckets for such a large system (24 buckets) is major headache for maintence. A connected DWC bucket system with a controller might work better for you as changes would be easier to do. Another option would be to use those big rubbermaid tubs with 2-3 per hydrohut with 4-6 plants in each tub.

[Alaska]

Glassman, only one hut was opened, as they are next too each other they would disrupt the photo period if I opened both at once. So, the opened one is the dirt crop, as it is the one near the beginning of the 12/12 cycle, and still had a good chance of making it.

Thanks, we are gonna go dirt until the summer heat is over. I have read alot abou DWC, but the jumping in comment is about right. Especially since this is not my grow, but a completely inexperienced persons

[Alaska]

joe6pack

thanks for stopping in. I have been doing 5.5 for a while now. The airpumps are 80 gallon airpumps for 2 5g buckets. Pumps are outside the huts. 6 buckets are hooked up to a controller, with 12 plants and two controllers per hut

A

[Lucas]

high Alaska

I hope you get a handle on things

my thoughts
you have heat damage and Mg deficiency and you use way too much pH UP

I suggest you go with PBP @ 1T per gallon, no thrive alive, no PK 13-14, no molasses. I do recommend 1t per gallon of Cal Mag, it will reduce your need for pH UP

I suspect the leaf damage is partly due to root damage, maybe the pots are not properly irrigated.. too dry at times?

mostly though, a sealed tent with 90 degree temps is the problem. Either bring temps down with air conditioning or heavy venting. By heavy I mean, at least 250cfm of exhaust per 1k, plus a 100cfm intake assist.

to beat summer heat I agree DWC is not your friend. I suggest you consider ebb flow, as it is VERY heat resistant

hth
Lucas

[Alaska]

Thanks Lucas. I have found that the pyrosol drops the pH way way down, requireing quite a lot of up to get it back in shape.

We can't put any more $ in this until it starts paying for itself, so we are gonna use dirt intil summer is over, and go from there

Also, dirt tent has been opened, and fan placed blowing air through it, now temps are good

thanks again all

A

[Lucas]

> I have found that the pyrosol drops the pH way way down

dont use pyrosol either

stop using so many extra additives, they are driving me nuts!

[hydrorascal]

Lucas.... ya mean plants will grow with just a proper mix of GH Micro and Bloom running at a proper PH and temperature ?

Surely you jest !!!

[Joe King Park]

don't forget to take into account the qualities of C02 include Cooling a warm room/Tent
i have succesfuly grown in a one metre by one metre by two metre high Growtent, using square buckets, and a 600 HPS Jetstream air cooled reflector
resevoir temps stay low since whole lid is further covered with white visqueen plastic
i use two different sized lids, and usually power with a Rena 200 airpump ; ( silent and reliable) but only feeds approx 36% air to the resevoir
by using Dr Sochtings Oxygenator ( you fill submersible vessel with H202 and screw on the ceramic plate/ base)
when placed in the res , you can enjoy the benefits of using Both Cannazym and Hydrogen Peroxide together without the risk of damage to living enzymes
( this is achieved by the H202 passing through the ceramic plate in a vigourous amount of bubbles , which supplies a pure 100% DO instead of 36%
no elecricity needed
also multiple recirculating DWC, using linked Tubs/ Buckets will aid in temperature reduction in resevoir
Guardian Angel is a product specifically designed for hot resevoir temps www.hydrogarden.com
Don't ask why i use net pots so big, but they do work well
heres a couple of prototypes and also recirculating image
best of luck/ info Alaska
Joe

[Alaska]

> I have found that the pyrosol drops the pH way way down

dont use pyrosol either

stop using so many extra additives, they are driving me nuts!


I know its confusing, with DWC, dirt, and forward and backwards

I have never used pyrasol before this grow, but many people recommended it to help battle heat stress, it drops pH so far down I won't use it anymore. What I use at home (NOT THIS GROW)is just PBP with Molassass and PK 13-14 in flowering, and ocaisonally some thrive alive B1 and super thrive like when transplanted and when flipped to 12/12. I also do no pH adjustment at home. The only difference between here and home is RO water vs. city water, and 1k's instead of 600's.

For the record, DWC is officailly finished until the summer is over. We are using 2g dirt containers with the PBP/molassas/PK13-14 regimine.

Thanks all for the help

Alaska

[Lucas]

> just PBP with Molassass and PK 13-14 in flowering, and ocaisonally some thrive alive B1 and super thrive

wow, just 5 ingredients!

you guys amaze me, the way you "feel" what your plants need..

the hydro store must love you

have you ever considered just using PBP by itself, all alone, with nothing else? Bet you cant use just one :-)

whatever gets the job done
Lucas

[Alaska]

Actually Lucas, I have used PBP just by its self, and PBP with PK 13-14, and PBP with pk and molassas, all at different times with controls, and my plants are happier and healthier than ever. To clarify, the TAB1 and ST are only use 2x through the whole cycle. At planting, and when flipped to 12/12

FYI, the molassas is to feed the myco I use more than the plants, and the PK only during weeks 3-6 of flowering

And yes, my hydro store does love me :)

Be safe and as always, thanks for stopping in

[Lucas]

> my plants are happier and healthier than ever.

I respect whatever you do that makes your plants happy. However, I dont think its the additives. You probably improved on your environment.

> To clarify, the TAB1 and ST are only use 2x through the whole cycle. At planting, and when flipped to 12/12

cool.. all Im suggesting is that your plants dont need the additives, and the additives cause other problems, like pH issues.

I honestly think your plants are happy despite having to deal with the additives.

> FYI, the molassas is to feed the myco I use more than the plants, and the PK only during weeks 3-6 of flowering

it is not necessary to feed the mycrobes, they are not your friend. Molasses causes slime in a hydro res, you just cant tell in the dirt.

Molasses is not helping your plants, it is complicating your pH.

Maybe Im all wrong, and the additives are helping deal with heat stress, but I dont think so. What helps plants deal with hot roots, is more oxygen, delivered by NOT watering too much.

Does your irrigation and medium interact in a way that the pots need water daily? That would be good.

Do your pots stay wet for more than 1 day, and do you water anyway? That would be bad.

Overwatering causes the "heat stress" you see on your fried leaves, because the roots are dying from lack of oxygen. Dying roots also cause low pH.

thanks for not taking offense at my tone and attitude. I trust we all have the same goal, healthy plants. I just dont think health comes from the nutes, I think it comes from healthy roots, that get to breathe plenty of oxygen. And healthy leaves that get plenty of CO2.

Additives dont cure the cause of the symptoms. But, there is always someone who will tell you a certain additive will solve plant problems, even if those problems have everything to do with oxygen and CO2, and nothing to do with nutrients.

peace
Lucas

[Alaska]

Thanks Lucas!

I really appreaciate it and will consider it all!

It is confusing for others that are not me to grasp the whole picture.

I have been growing at home using the additives mentioned above for several years wit hvery good success.

All these problems of DWC and such have been at a friends grow that I have been trying to help with. Due to all the DWC problems, my friend is now using dirt following the same formula as I do with my personal crops at home.

The microbes I am feeding with molassas are the beneficial myco's that I add when planting, not just whatever is developing in the soil. And I would never use molassas in Hydro!!!!

I try not to let the plants be overwatered, and for the most part they get dry between waterings. Not to wilting, but much lighter and top inches of soil dried up.


>thanks for not taking offense at my tone and attitude. I trust we all have the same goal, healthy plants. I just dont think health comes from the nutes, I think it comes from healthy roots, that get to breathe plenty of oxygen. And healthy leaves that get plenty of CO2.


No problemo man, you are 100% correct, healthy plants is what we all want!!!


On an interesting note, I think I have found the source of one of the problems at my friends house. Now that there is only one hydro hut in use, I told him to just leave the CO2 monitors on, but set so low it won't come on. Well, don't you know it, one co2 controller says about 800, and the other about 400, and they are only about 15 feet apart and in the same room! So, one of the huts was getting only about 600 ppm instead of 1000.


I agree wholeheartedly about the oxyen and co2!

Thanks again for all your help

A

[Head Rush]

> my plants are happier and healthier than ever.
Additives dont cure the cause of the symptoms. But, there is always someone who will tell you a certain additive will solve plant problems, even if those problems have everything to do with oxygen and CO2, and nothing to do with nutrients.

peace
Lucas

It is a problem with a lot of people they go overboard with the additives. However there are a few additives I found to be usefull in hydro. H2O2 helps keep algae down. Though keeping light out of the res is the best way, H2O2 can help keep down algae growth in systems where water is dripped or poured onto the medium from the top. It generaly sanitizes the nutrient solution (don't use with organic nutes it will kill them). It also provides bit of extra O2 to the nute solution. I use 3% H2O2 at a rate of 15 mL/gal each res change. Using with addbacks is optional. I have also poured it straight out of the bottle onto my grow rocks when a bit of powdery mildew started to develop and it took out the PM completely and immediately.

Silicon also seems to be a good additive. It gives the plants extra resistance to heat and insects.

Now with both of these additives we know exactly what they are. Therefore we know H2O2 breaks down into H2O and O (free radical) killing grems and aerating the reservoir. Also there are at least some studies that indicate silicone has the effects I mentioned. With most additives I have looked at there are just promises as to what the additive will do. Usually they are technically impressive promises like improve krebbs cycle or improve vitamin transport etc. Absent is any mention of what ingrediants lead to these results. Therefore one cannot reseach these ingrediants to see if there are any credible studies out there to support these claims.

I am sure there are companies who really believe in their additives and that some additives will end up standards in future nutrient mixtures as science proves their worth. However I very much get the impression that there is a lot of "snake oil" out there in nutrient additive land.

Also I think Alaska's biggest problem was lack of fresh air. You really need to get that under control. Either get the CO2 down right (I have seen grows posted that were no fresh air, only CO2 injection) or start using fresh air.

Those Hydro Huts look pretty nice too. They seem a bit pricey at 200 USD for the regular unit and 460 USD for the delux. You could make a grow cabinet out of wood or even plastic like the Hydro Hutfor much less. The same is true for most hydro systems. However for those who are not interested in building a bunch of stuff these things can be worth the price.

[Alaska]

Head Rush

Thanks for your insight. I aggree about additives....I only use things I am familiar with, and have used enough snake oil in my time.

The huts are nice, thought they could have been built, the setup time on the huts is much less time than buildind, and by using them I don't need to patch walls or ceilings, move lumber, ext. And would you beleive the whole thing came in two small boxes. One about 6"wide, 2" thick, and 4 ft long. The second about 1.5ft. x 1.5 ft. and about 10" tall. I was surprised.

Since I Posted last, we have ahd one plant go good, it was watered with a combo of well and RO water (watered with well, ferted with RO). I believe a large portion of the problem was iron def. The plants are still not lush, but growing much better after some iron was added.

Also, just rigged up a 450cfm fan pushing air out the dryer vent, so now there is lots of circulation, and no co2

Be safe and thanks

Alaska

[BlueCelisWhite1]

I use to be an additive nut. Ive done my share in supporting my local hydro store and the overall hydroponic manufactoring sector this is for sure.

The other thing I am sure of is IMO there isnt one nutrient additive that you the grower or your plants need. The only additive I have found that works it adding fresh air as often as possible. I dont use CO2 at all run tubblers at Lucas form and consistanly average 2lbs per 1K with heavier yielding strains.

Lucas formula with Flora series nutes works better than any fertilizers I have ever used and I have experimented with them all as well as with most or all additives available.

[Head Rush]

Head Rush
The huts are nice, thought they could have been built, the setup time on the huts is much less time than buildind, and by using them I don't need to patch walls or ceilings, move lumber, ext. And would you beleive the whole thing came in two small boxes. One about 6"wide, 2" thick, and 4 ft long. The second about 1.5ft. x 1.5 ft. and about 10" tall. I was surprised.
Alaska

Yes those huts look like a good solution for non "do it yourselfers". Such people do not have the know how to build grow boxes and even with instuctions they do not have the tools.

There was a guy who hung out at OG who sold stealth grow cabinets. They looked like very good cabinets. However these huts are made out of canvass making them lighter and easier to transport.