DWC - the understanding and tips

[ihaveworms]

i have been a DWC'er for quite some time, and have tried other ways... and just seems to me that DWC is the way i like best, for my own reasons and speed of growth and vigor... along with countless other factors..

- if you decide to go with 5 gallon buckets... great.. they work like a dream. but, if you grow larger plants (vegging to about 2 ft. or maybe even 1.5 ft. before switch) be very careful, as the rootmass in a 5 gallon bucket tends to form quickly.. and when this happens your rootmass will run out of room in the horizontal aspect and start growing down to the air stones .. once they hit the edges of the bucket.... the rootmass will start to tighten up... due to lack of room and be forced downward thus filling that 5 gal. bucket quick... remember your roots grow majority during the dark cycle... now when they do this - if to large.. you will notice the rootmass become very very tight and tangled... fine.. no problems..

problems that occur after time:
when the rootmass overcomes and starts filling the buckets like this, you will (if not checked) notice dead spots toward the later flowering times.... if this occurs.. you need to up the air volume in those buckets- or clean your stones.. but plz plz, don't forget to securly fasten your stones to the bottom of the bucket.. as the roots will take them over .. and essentially swallow them- those providing air to that area of the rootmass.. and leaving other areas stagnant which causes the dead spots... your plants may look fine, but you will notice later as they flower that some areas of the plant aren't looking as good as others areas... which is due to that happening.. just pull the stone out. clean or replace.. and reattach.. IMHO- there should be 2 stones at the bottom of those buckets providing that air...

if using a controller bucket and resevoir.. things can get tricky- due to water volume affecting the water level in buckets.. best thing is to fill and distribute at the beginning before adding the plants.. to make sure all is even and such.. and don't forget.. the larger the rootmass, the more volume it takes within that bucket.. thus less water/nute mix... adjust according..

now... one thing i have learned after trying just about everything...are bubbles... if you have the funds... spend the coin on a killer air pump.. IMHO.. the GH dual diaphram pumps are nothing compared to others you can find on the net with the same or more psi/cfm's..... the dolphin AV-50 is a good running pump.. for the same price.. and comes with a 12 port splitter.. works great.. and the rebuild kit is cheap... don't be fooled.. if you can do it, make that water froth... bubble the hell outta it.. so you do get those "dry" spots...

if you decide to go big.. get tubs.. they are easy to work with.. and hold more nute mix... BUT, don't settle for shitty cheapy's .. as they bend when you fill with water... try some "tough boxes" or something in that area.. if you can't find those... you can double up on the tubs.. you will thank me, as just the tub, will piss you off and such .. cause it pops the lid up due to bending from the water volume... save yourself the hassle, and cleanup time...

POTS to use-
you can use regular netpots from the dro store... they work great.. but i recommend cutting larger holes in the bottom of them... used them before.. and the tap root half way through was bending the hell outta the small holes it was growing out of... don't stress that tap, and just cut larger hole for that tap root to get large.. so cut enough out of the center of the net pot so that its about an inch hole... let that tap root loose... to hold it back..

Medium in the pots
i have tried everything.. this is IMHO
- rockwool would be great- but its a pain in the ass sometimes, as it absorbs water and can cause problems i.e. stem rot, algae, pieces fall off and wrap in rootmass- now if you later the bottom of the net pot and then lay the rockwool square on top of it.. and surround it with that other medium.. you should be fine..

- hydroton- works great... but remember if you cut that 1" hole at the bottom of netpot... those damn things will fall through.. and make a damn mess .. in the bucket/tub - of the floor...

- lava rock- IMHO kicks ass.. very pourus... layer the bottom of the netpot with the lava rock.. that way its large enough to snuff that 1" hole from anything falling out.. and allows that tap root to expand and move.. along with other roots... if you choose to layer just the bottom of the netpot with that lava rock.. cool.. and use hydroton or rockwool for the rest... it will do fine... but all lava rock as a medium will work great...

ALWAYS WASH THE HYDROTON AND LAVAROCK BEFORE USING IT.. and wash it thoroughly... as you will get a nasty film everywhere in your bucket/tub...

finally.... i just want to stress BUBBLES, BUBBLES, BUBBLES... - hell overdue it.. make that water move.. and if you can help it.. grab some ceramic stones.. as they last- if they clog up some.. pull em out.. and soak in peroxide or alcohol.. and use some fine sandpaper to scuff them up... and re-attach... those little 1" blue stones.. you are gambling with... some work great, some clog, and some leak right away at connection... do it, do it right... ofcourse - when you have the coin...

anyways.. if i think of more.. i willl add..

ohhhh btw.. the lengths of your airlines (IF ONLY CONNECTED TO THE SAME PUMP) do have an effect.... try an keep them the same length no matter how far each bucket/tub away.. as airstones get clogged.. the resistance changes...

good luck

worms

[ihaveworms]

i am not asking anyone to change the style they do things... just understand it and don't hold back... try new things... as you are mother nature when it comes to controlling the environment... so test out different style and go with what works for you... the "right" way may not be suitable for others in their condition/s ...

just remember:

- mass bubbles (stirs water and keeps nutes mixed- while providing a nice O2 level within the water- use *if possible* fine coarse stones.. as the smaller the bubble.. the more dissolved O2)

- temps- they can make or break ya
*aswell as your PH level in your nute mix... test it, and test it often*

- let your ladies show ya how happy they are... if getting sick.. diagnose quickly to prevent further hassles.. and further lockouts...

- VENTILATION, VENTILATION, VENTILATION

- also.. keep an oscillating fan running on low in there... you don't want it blowing the hell outta your plants... just to assimilate mother nature... you guessed it... *wind* .. and by doing this, you will help the plants become more stable .. constant air movement in the room (just enough to move'em alittle...sway if you may ) will replicate mother natures wind- and cause the branching and/or meristem to thicken up to withstand the wind... which helps support your fruits


anyways... good luck..

worms

[LadyTokin]

Great thread!!!

If it's alright I would like to add one thing about the tubs....go with the round tubs, the ones with the rope handles work great and you won't have a problem with them collapsing or popping lids. You can use plywood to make the lid as the round tubs do not come with a lid. You can have anywhere from two to ten or twelve plants. IMO four is best for a good yield without overcrowding but I have seen pics and read where as many as fourteen plants have been put in these systems.

The round tubs work great with a vert scrog as well ;).

[ihaveworms]

i agree.. thx Lady.. good to c u..

if you decide to use tubs... either go with the round like LT said... or try and score some "tuff boxes" at Home depo... or your local hardware store.. they are very sturdy.. and won't bend and fold when full of water...

or

you can double up on the flimsy tubs.. which makes them more sturdy.. but double the price... and lose alittle head room... hehe.. some setups need that little extra...

also... make them light tight.. you don't want that algae growth happening... as it eats up beneficial bacteria and such... you can drill 1/4" holes at the top of the tub.. and not in the lid.. cause if you pull the lid up.. you run into the problem of ripping whatever is holding your airline down...

i have used everything from plumbers goop, to epoxy to try and keep that line down.. but it eventually pulls loose.. after reading and asking and trying in the past.. i have found that duct tape works great.... and IMO had no effect on the plants at all...

thx for the input LT..

worms

[LadyTokin]

another great way to keep those airstones down is to tie a couple of river sinkers for fishing to the airstone. Works great for those who are afraid to use duct tape. I, however, used duct tape for quite awhile with no adverse affects on the ladies :).

[marigyp]

Great thread NM. I like DWC, SWC, and soil mediums. All organic of coarse! Each has an advantage over the other, but I don't agree that hydro is the only way to go as some have suggested in the past. If people pay as much attention to their plants in soil as they did in hydro.....

First lesson in DWC is spend the few extra dollars and get great containers, not good but great. The hassles they will save you during the grow are more than well worth it.

Here is another idea that I use for my airstones. Hot melt glue. Simply take a sharp knife and score the area on the tub where the airstone will be placed. I like to put on just a little thin layer of the hot glue and rub it into the scored area with a butter knife quickly, then put on the final hot glue and seat the air stones. They will not float, but if you pull on them they will come loose for cleaning or exchanging.

[hydrorascal]

The 20 gallon rope handle buckets LadyT mentioned are available at Casa de Pot, lowes and even the dollar store.

For those preferring a more quiet environment, a powerhead in a painter sox or similar material works quite well too.

What ever you use to make the top with add stops at 3 compass points to make sure the top stays in place. Sure dont want it sliding off onto the floor around day 55 ~!~

And to add to worms great opening.... the proper PH range is 5.3 to 6.2 at between 68 and 72 degrees. Below 65 plant growth is greatly retarded and above 80, you can pretty well guarantee root rot.

A Hanna Checker 1 is a super meter especially when ya consider the typically under $30 cost from careful ebay shopping.

[Genghis Bong]

those plastic laundry tubs that you can get at hardware stores are great. they come with a drain that can be fitted with 1 1/2" pvc plumbing, they have a raised lip that will hold a lid securely and come with legs that can be discarded or cut to the height you want.

http://www.plumbersurplus.com/images/prod/1/04207.jpg

[Dman]

to add to worms great opening.... the proper PH range is 5.3 to 6.2 at between 68 and 72 degrees. Below 65 plant growth is greatly retarded and above 80, you can pretty well guarantee root rot.

A Hanna Checker 1 is a super meter especially when ya consider the typically under $30 cost from careful ebay shopping.

Hi Hydrorascal,

That's quite a variance with the PH range. Can you please elaborate on these PH ranges during veg/flower? IE: in your experience are there optimum PH levels for these specifc phases of growth in DWC? FWIW....I use DNF (Dutch Nutrient Formula) Hydro nutes and try and maintain a 6.0 PH level with decent results. Could I be doing better?;)

[ihaveworms]

IMO ...

when i used GH .. the plants that were fickel were starting to lockout at the 5.3 and anything above 6.0 ... but some plants had no probs with it..

but 5.6-5.8 seems to be a good neutral area where the plants stay happy..

worms

[Ziggy]

Great thread!!!
The round tubs work great with a vert scrog as well ;).




We must know the same people lol
Good to see you LT;)

[Dman]

IMO ...

when i used GH .. the plants that were fickel were starting to lockout at the 5.3 and anything above 6.0 ... but some plants had no probs with it..

but 5.6-5.8 seems to be a good neutral area where the plants stay happy..

worms

Thanks wormsy.....next time I run a bucket I'll try a lower PH level thruout and see if I can do better. ;)

[LadyTokin]

hiya ziggy :). Great to see you here too.

[GrowGreen]

Dman,

You would be better off to let your pH swing it natural range. 5.2 to 6.8

Not all nutrients are readily available in an acidic solution. As hydro growers we should use the natural swing in pH to tell us what the plants are using and their needs.

Peace
GG

[Deltanugz]

Wow GG, that's a really wide range! I have a friend who never adjusts his pH. Starts it at 5.6 and lets it float up to 6.3 or so before he changes the res.

But when I use Lucas Formula in a drip system, my pH rarely moves around at all. Maybe a very slow upward movement over the course of weeks. I suppose I could increase the rate of movement by adjusting the amount of pH Up I add in my addbacks...

[marigyp]

I agree with GrowGreen, I used to fight the reservoir to keep it at 5.5 in hydro. After reading about nutrient uptake during the swing up through pH from 5.2 to 6.8, and allowing that to occur I get much better looking plants. One of our more technical members had a very interesting post on this subject on CW before the calamity. It is so sad that so much info was lost. It is posts like this that will bring back the knowledge.

[Deltanugz]

...

[marigyp]

I would imajine you have all seen the following chart which shows the efficiency of your plants uptake of nutrients through the pH swing.

[ihaveworms]

IMHO.. i used RO water.. and when added GH nutes.. it balanced itself at 5.6 and floated to 5.8 and stayed there..

we can talk all day long at what it should be.. but a huge factor here is what your water's starting PH is at... tap, RO ????

worms

[Dman]

Hi Wormsy,

We just dug a new well and were were running 5ppm of Iron and 24 grains of hardness, so we had to do some serious treatment. I purchased a good ($1800) oxidizing injection (chem free) iron filter, and a decent softener to take care of the hardness. I was suprised that the PH from the tap is about 8.0. If I by-bass the water softener, I'm down to about 7.0. I add nutes, and PH adjust down to 6.0. FWIW...I do let the PH drift for the first few days, then when top-ups are added I go back and maintian the 6.0 level until res (bucket) change. Given whats been said in this thread, and the wide PH variances...what is the optimum PH level to start with at fresh res change?


IMHO.. i used RO water.. and when added GH nutes.. it balanced itself at 5.6 and floated to 5.8 and stayed there..

we can talk all day long at what it should be.. but a huge factor here is what your water's starting PH is at... tap, RO ????

worms

[ihaveworms]

crazy brutha...

a 6 stage RO unit i bought awhile back and hooked up under the sink, gave a PH of about 6.5 and the GH nutes brought it down to about 5.6 or so... and balanced off usually around 5.8 ... give or take conditions...

tap PH is over 8.0 .. very hard water here...

worms

[GrowGreen]

I would recommend not using “Softener” water for growing plants or drinking. The process that removes the hardness adds Sodium to your water. Sodium is not very welcome to most plant roots.

what is the optimum PH level to start with at fresh res change?

From my experience Optimum pH levels for a Veg res is 5.8pH… Nitrogen and Phosphorus are readily available.
Bloom res ideal starting pH of 6.3 Enough Nitrogen is available and Potassium is optimum.

You cant go wrong with a RO filter..

Peace:good:
GG

[hydrorascal]

Gotta agree whole heartedly with GG on the water softner.. NO salt in my res's either.

Ive used GH 3 part flora series for a long time. Only the Micro and Bloom but not to be confused with the newer still unstable I hear new type. Ive run RO water for along time as my old tap water had a ppm of 400+. Ive always adjusted the water PH prior to adding any nutes.

Easiest way to figure that is .. make a one gallon batch, NO adjustments. Let it set for an hour or so and measure it. Adjust from there.

With GH nutes, Ive found a res starting PH of ~5.3 to be a good place. A clean water+nutes solution will rise in about 10 days to 6.0 to 6.3 and then drift down in another week or so to right at 5.5.

Dman..with your water still reading 8.0, you need to confirm your filter is working. If you dont have a TDS meter, take a sample to a local aquarium store and ask them to measure it. If your TDS is over 200ppm then ya reeeally need to get an RO filter. Not doing so will make hydro a nitemare for ya... just ask worms of his experience prior to RO and after.!!

Different nutes have different preferred PH ranges. The key is to find what PH range with your nutes that your plants like. With GH nutes, below 5 and plants will tell ya reeeeal quickly as they will over about 6.5.

And as ya know, keep the res temps in the 68 to 75 degree range.

[ihaveworms]

oh man.. tap water with a ph like yours dman was a nightmare to deal with..

the city i use to live in, put a chem in the aquifer to control hydrilla and protect endangered species... fine- but it screwed the pH up real bad... dealt with it for a long time. constantly addy pH down.. to the point where it gets to be poison to the plants... lockouts in nutes, and other problems..

IMHO- go to your local grocery store.. and buy some of the 5 gallon containers... and fill them up once a week... there filtered water etc, is pretty ideal to work with... as they use a large RO unit for the water ... (most i know here do, as we have very hard water) ..

the swings aswell after adding the pH down.... sucked... it would be good for one day.. and shoot back up.. safe yourself the heart ache and the $$$$ and use the 1$ for 5 gallons... works out for the best.. or buy a RO system..

take care

worms

[hydrorascal]

there are always 4/5/6 stage RO units available on ebay. anywhere from $50 up.
Get enough storage buckets so that a >10 gallon a day unit will work and just keep your storage units full. RO water is great for cooking and drinking too...

worms and I have been there... dont fight it.. just get an RO unit... save ya sooo much grief in trying to deal with what ya have... your plants will love ya for it too...

that is unless ya want to be figuring daily what to do to the res to get it to work today. ohh.. the girls hate that too..and will show ya just how much they hate it too.... hehheheh....hr

[chronix79]

hey people kinda new here and i wanted to take this whole DWC thing for a spin.

I was goin to use 5 gallon black buckets, but they dont seem very good by what i have read so far.I just wanted to ask if these are kinda like the tuffboxes mentioned earlier?

http://www.lowes.com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=44066-78148-93800&detail=desc&lpage=none

thanks all

[ihaveworms]

there ya go chronix... that will work..

don't get me wrong.. 5 gallon buckets work out great.. don't be discouraged.

worms

p.s. HR - i have an RO unit.. i was done fighting that a couple years ago ;)

[OBSS'd]

Man, I'm surprised that you can get anything to grow using soft water. The salt is damn near toxic to the plants. I've found in growing in 3 different locations, all with different water sources,that a starting ph in the mid 5's that naturally swings to the low 6's is really benificial to the girls. In fact, in my experience it's almost impossible to maintain a completely steady ph anyway.

But, lots of variations on this basic premise work, you'll dial it in for what works for you. No sense re-inventing the wheel though....

OBSS'd

[hays]

good old tread just a bump

how about using water pump and waterfall effect to bring oxygen in?
-I've heard that moving water oxygenates as well as bubbles.

[memyselfandi]

Moving water is more effective then bubbles.

Falling water is more effective then moving water

Shower falling water is even more effective.

The industrial oxygenation is done by agitators motors like the one used in the water treatment stations

http://www.environengg.com/images/aerators-150HP-Oxygen-transfer-testing.jpg

a good and effective method is a aquarium pump with venturi effect connected to a air pump.

[Flyer]

finally.... i just want to stress BUBBLES, BUBBLES, BUBBLES... - hell overdue it.. make that water move.. and if you can help it.. grab some ceramic stones.. as they last- if they clog up some.. pull em out.. and soak in peroxide or alcohol.. and use some fine sandpaper to scuff them up... and re-attach... those little 1" blue stones.. you are gambling with... some work great, some clog, and some leak right away at connection... do it, do it right...

http://www.deepwaterinnovations.com/Products/MicroPoreOxygenDiffuser.aspx


http://www.deepwaterinnovations.com/Portals/0/All%20Micro-Pore.jpg http://www.stealthhydroponics.com/images/oxystone_run.jpg http://www.stealthhydroponics.com/images/oxy3.jpg http://www.discountgreenthumb.com/image/cache/data/grow/AirPump/SDA540-250x250.jpg

[Bob Terwilliger]

Hiya folks, Now thist reminds me of the old days, only much more polite. I agree with the bubble idea. More oxygen and more bubbles never hurt.. I used to run two Thomas air pumps, each one feeding it's own 'reservoir' then each tank fed 12 buckets. I'll tell ya, when those babies kicked on, it sounded like a 12 person jacuzzi in there!

Sideshow...........

[memyselfandi]

the venturi has another advantage you get tiny bubbles suspended in the water.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X9U5kI5MFgE&NR=1

i will try to take a photo of my aquarium with a compact camera can't promise if the bubbles are visible

[Smitty]

I love DWC, I started using it specifically because I could build a DIY system on the cheap and it is so simple, yet extremely effective.

I used Hydrotron in net pots for a long time, but I got tired of cleaning it, and skidding across the floor on dropped pebbles. I slopped a bucket of nutrients all over the place because of a few loose pebbles!

I went medium-less after reading a post on the old OG and never looked back.

I use a piece of pool noodle about 3 inches thick. I take a knife and cut a slit about 1/2 inch deep around the circumference of the piece.

I mark the hole in the bucket top by tracing around the piece, then cut about 1/2 inch inside the line.

The piece of noodle gets pushed into the hole in the lid, and the groove in the noodle allows the edge of the hole (which is smaller than the diameter of the noodle) to slip in and holds it snug.

A couple of small pieces of noodle will hold the seedling or clone in place until the lower branches grow out a bit. Once the branches grow out, the weight of the plant causes it to slip down the hole a bit and the lowest branches hold it in place.

You'll have to tie or otherwise brace the plant so it doesn't get top heavy and fall over.

It works great, no hydrotron to clean and is reusable over and over. And no loose pebbles.

[Bobby Smith]

Lol, just went media-less E&F for my mother setup because I'm so sick of cleaning/dealing with hydroton.

I fucking hate those little pebbles.

[Flyer]

You'll have to tie or otherwise brace the plant so it doesn't get top heavy and fall over.

It works great, no hydroton to clean and is reusable over and over. And no loose pebbles.

That’s a great idea Smitty! Because of the constant water contact in dwc, and if you keep your trees supported, there really is no reason to use any media at all and your system becomes a true water culture.

Lol, just went media-less E&F for my mother setup because I'm so sick of cleaning/dealing with hydroton.

I fucking hate those little pebbles.

Ebb & flow is off thread topic but I will stress my point for other readers.

No media at all in ebb & flow is not a good idea and especially for growing mothers where reliability is where it counts. As you remove the media from ebb & flow or flood and drain, will have to increase your flood and drain ratios. In doing so you move from traditional ebb and flow to aeroponic production. And that is just what it is, production. This setup works great for fast turn around production used mainly in your vegging and production stages for fast growth cycles. This setup should be avoided at all costs in a "Mother" sustainability stage. The reliability of this setup during pump or power failure is not only poor but could be complete devastation.

The cleaning of hydroton is really not that difficult. I have written a post on dealing with the cleaning of grow media here: http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/showpost.php?p=102771&postcount=18

Also, other media can be used such as Growstones which will not roll out of control and will actually hold more air than hydroton: http://www.hydrofarm.com/pb_detail.php?itemid=9631

Methods or setups for dealing with less media in ebb and flow are the use of baskets on a hard top vs. just dumping into your flood trays. This will eliminate the massive quantities needed to sustain your ebb and flow garden. http://www.americanagritech.com/plastics/plastic-trays/lids/48-x-48-tray-lid

[Bobby Smith]

My new setup is a hybrid DWC/E&F (but more DWC, IMO), because it floods the tray twice an hour and uses no media - the roots uptake water and nutes directly from the nute solution with no media to buffer or assist.

It's DWC (again, IMO) but without the issues of having to keep the water <70F at all times or using an airstone because the roots are allowed to intake oxygen when the flood subsides.

I'm going to install a redundant pump in case one should go out; that being said, I'd rather lose 8 mothers (which can be replaced with clones from my flowering crop) than my 90 plants in flowering.

FWIW, if I was looking for the most reliability possible, I'd be using rockwool (or another wet medium) - if a pump craps out on you (even using hydroton), your window to save your plants is fairly small (a day-ish).

Sorry for getting off-topic; I'll post a pic/video of my setup to let you all see what I mean in a week or two.

EDIT: I know how to clean hydroton but simply lack the patience and desire to do so (and that really goes for all mediums) - have no proper sink in my grow room and don't want to be hauling tubs of medium back and forth from the garage to my bathtub for cleaning.

[Smitty]

Medium-less DWC as I described it definitely has some advantages. Hydrotron does work fine, as I said, I used it for quite a while. But unless you are very careful when making the hole for the net pot, the whole plant and the pot can slip into the res when the plant gets big. It sucks to come home and find your baby has fallen into the nute solution.

With the Pool noodle snug in it's groove, it cant fall in (unless you make the hole to big)

A few drywall screws in the lid lets you tie the plant upright and also gives you some anchor points if you LST parts of the plant.

And the noodle has enough give so that the wedges you used to hold the seedling/clone just compact as the stem gets bigger.

An added bonus is that the roots don't get pinched in holes in the net pot as they grow. The noodle can be re-used over and over once it's been fitted in the hole.

If you are a DIYer, it saves money on net pots and hydrotron, not to mention ease of cleaning and sheer simplicity.

I don't take credit for the idea, as I said I read about it on OG long ago. But I highly recommend it. Simple, cheap very effective.