I believe this is light burn

[joe6pack]

Am I right?

bud is about 3" from the bulb (150 HPS)

[Green Supreme]

Just curious what strain that is.Doesn't really look like a burn as the area around it is unaffected.Could just be a mutant.I once had a sweet tooth do something like that.Peace GS

[joe6pack]

it is woodhorse trainwreck

[Green Supreme]

Is that piece still supple or is it hard and crunchy?

[joe6pack]

I think it's supple as I remember - lights out right now so I'll have to check tomorrow - and it's doing at the end of two buds - both are close to bulb but I think others are closer.

thanks

-joe

[Old Toby]

It's light bleach. Burnt is more of a tan/paper bag color....think Colombian Gold.

[dcyans]

It's light bleach. Burnt is more of a tan/paper bag color....think Colombian Gold.
Correct also radiant heat burn can be spotty, leaf tips will tell the story also.

[joe6pack]

did I say light burn - I meant light bleaching lol :D - I tied the bud back a few inches further from the lamp so it will hopefully halt this deformed growth - sure was weird - two buds on my scrog did this --

anyways maybe we can use it for a C-W grow faq some day - as a picture of what light bleaching (as opposed to light burn) looks like....

[CottonBalls]

Judging by the leaf tips it's nute burnt badly.

I don't see any other problem with it.

[dcyans]

Judging by the leaf tips it's nute burnt badly.

I don't see any other problem with it.
Thats funny!! LOL BTW there are many reasons for a slight tip burn like that, and that isn't bad at all joe6pack don't sweat it..........yet! ;)

[plantbuilder]

this is getting ridiculous i am considering deleting my account

[CottonBalls]

Well Plantbuilder, you do as you must....

For those that like to hear what someone says about truth read up.

The red circles are obvious signs of nute burn......deal with it.

The black circle is where the light would have burnt the plant first as the hairs are very thin and more suceptable to heat related issues (the leaf can disperse heat much better as it has a larger surface area to do so).

Now, why aren't the hairs cooked if it's a heat issue from being to close to the light ?

The lighter colored leaves are a non issue, as they get a few more hours of light on them photosynthesis will make them a darker green.

[spaceman]

dick cheese what are you smoking? it is bleaching fromtoo close to light... nutes look not to be an issue, wee tip burn are indicators..... peace

[CottonBalls]

Did you happen to read that he has it under a 150w?

Why aren't the hairs burnt as they are closer to the light ?

Get back on this after asking daddy.

[plantbuilder]

why does it have to be this way? lol

[joe6pack]

Ok here to settle the dispute is the full plant - I've circled the two spots of light bleaching and these buds are the two closest to the "Sweet spot" of the lamp. I think you will agree that there may be a wee bit of tip burn but this girl has definetly not been overfertilized IMVHO.

-joe

p.s. - plant builder I am sorry If my post has offended you - this is the first time I've seen this.

[dcyans]

FYI leaf tips can brown from over watering, under watering, pH inbalances, high nutrient concentrations as well as several other reasons. Radiant heat issues would indeed shrivel up those hairs although there is such a thing called radiant nutrient heat burn which is spotty in appearance and is a direct result of the heating of nutrient salts in the leaves themselves. CottonBalls you are quick at the sarcasism as well as jumping to conclusions this is not the sign of a veteran grower at all so please step back take a deep breath and think about it, I still do after 30+ years of doing this. ;)

[Carpet Muncher]

DAYAM Joe! all that <beautiful> bud from a 150??? GREAT show!!

what is she??

[joe6pack]

carpet muncher - that's one of two plants :) - thanks

she's something called trainwreck but not the "real deal clone only" trainwreck this is from seed - there's a thread around here with more info but I wish not to digress here

[CottonBalls]

Now we (dcyans) are stereotyping veteran growers.....fucking lovely.

Kindly note the burnt brown leaf tips from top to bottom on that plant.
Nute burn, period.

Now note the budsites BETWEEN the 2 lighter colored spots....not lighter colored.

Heat isn't selective, it won't single out 2 spots.

[Carpet Muncher]

that's one of two plants :)

yes, i saw that, and that's what makes it even more amazing to me. (too bad i didn't see that you said it was "woodhorse tw" in the 3rd post! lol)

from the pic, they don't look like the top-most buds.. is that just the way it was shot?

what's the temp in there, and have you run this girl before?

ime of light bleaching, it shrivels the pistols and the bleaching occurs on the leaves, not the pistols. also, it 'bleaches' holes in them.. white.. not light green. also, given the widespread minor tip burn, i'm guessing it's something below the rootline.

either way, imho, those plants look so healthy i wouldn't sweat it one way or the other.. but you're obviously a perfectionist, so i hope you nail it down soon.

good luck! CM

[Buckwheat]

Dang guys!
Now that I've seen the whole plant I'm with Cotton you have nute burn but don't disregard what Dycans has to say about it, from my experience with him he is very intelligent when it comes to diagnosing plant problems.

If you had heat issues those hairs would be fried(I've done it)...the brown spots on the edge on some a leafs(not tips)is a tell tale sign of nute lock up due to low humidity and nutes to strong in my opinion...do you have any brown spots in the middle of any leafs? The wreck I've grown has been a light eater. Those are pretty healthy plants for the most part, back off on the PPM's and try to keep the humidity 50%-60% .

Very nice show for a 150 guy.

Edit:
And as far as those light colored twisted leaves go, yes light bleached("3 inches from the bulb") How do you get it that close to those buds and cover the rest of the plants anyways?.....pull it up to 12"-18". Most sativas react better anyways with it farther way and TW is mostly a sativa.

Keep in mind a good rule of thumb is......
strong light = strong nutes
low light = low nutes

[dcyans]

Now we (dcyans) are stereotyping veteran growers.....fucking lovely.

Kindly note the burnt brown leaf tips from top to bottom on that plant.
Nute burn, period.

Now note the budsites BETWEEN the 2 lighter colored spots....not lighter colored.

Heat isn't selective, it won't single out 2 spots.

Well I only have two things to say number one I've grown with many here for many years and those that know know. Now As I was posting joe6pack was posting also which included a full plant pic, you seem to know it all which is a downfall here at this site, this time I do have to agree with your diagnosis which does indeed indicate higher than necessary nutrient concentrations I would not have been so sure from such a small sampling of the plant as in the first pic that wouldn't have been an educated guess. I've grown professional for thirty plus years and in those years I've learned to take all things into consideration before giving one a recommendation I also am not a I told ya so kinda guy but one who respects others. I do apologize for the LOL but I have to disagree about the "bad" it is however in need of adjustment (dilution) I agree and have to give credit where credit is due good call.

[joe6pack]

from the pic, they don't look like the top-most buds.. is that just the way it was shot?

yes it is the way it was shot - you are looking at the front side of the plant - when it's in the cabinet as seen in this picture the plant forms a stadium like effect around the bulb. As I mentioned above these two bud tips are the two that are closest to the arc tube section of the bulb even though other buds are higher up on the plant they are further in distance from the bulb. It's kinda my technique to maximize things.

what's the temp in there, and have you run this girl before?

temps are 70 min / 78 max humidity is 50/60 %

first time running this girl from seed

do you have any brown spots in the middle of any leafs?
no

Thanks for all the compliments it makes me smile :) to see people become aware of what a little lamp like the 150 can produce. I'm able to routinely pull 3oz from 2 plants every 2 months with the aid of a smaller veg cabinet (11"widex11"deepx24"high).

So yeah I really don't think nutrients are too much of an issue - being my first go round with her I pushed and pushed - she looked light green at 750ppm so I pushed past 1100ppm of flower (which is alot in dwc in my experience) before the tip burn showed up. As of last week (7 weeks flower) I dropped ppms down to 650ppm. As of tonight I am flushing with h2o

I really think this is light bleaching as it was not a heat issue (plenty of air movement) - I've seen that kinda heat stress before and it show more in the leaves and tends to turn the pistals brown - here the new growth just started coming out w/o color - the tops of other buds are fine.


Anyways I tied one bud back from the lamp and we'll see if it recovers - the other I chopped to have a tester for day 54 - I think she'll need 63 days but I always like to take a bud earlier when I first grow to have a compare.

[CottonBalls]

There's a few people on this site (Bucky :) )that know I'm a grower. I'm not saying I'm the best or anything of the sort, I am stubborn though when I know for absolute sure I'm right.
I've cooked a few tops in my day, they turn brown/gray, they do not 'bleach'.
There is no physical way to 'bleach' a portion of a plant....except for lack of light (photosynthesis) or a stone cold lockout due to something being totally out of whack.

I'm sorry you are uncomfortable with my nick not being one well known, that has nothing to do with growing ability, you should know that without me having to say it.

Dcyans, thank you.

Joe, if you (it sounds like you already have) drop back down on the nutes I bet the color comes right back in the next day or two.
The plants look nice, just make sure and flush them really well so you don't taste anything funny from either nute residue or a imbalance that may have occured.

[GrowGreen]

Looks like bleaching too me.

Bleach and Burn, there is a difference

Nice looking grow Joe, very impressive 150w work. Your nutrient program looks to be working.

:allgood2:
GG

[Papi]

Nice buds joe, great job !

[joe6pack]

Hey papi annd grow green thanks for the kind words !

Hey cottonballs - thankyou for your honest advice - I really appreciate it and I do believe you have the experience to back it up. however I also think you're wrong here. I've done a bit of research in the horitcultural references and I think the diagnosis of light bleaching is correct.

I've also cooked a plant or two in my day and the damage is much more on the leaves and things do turn brown or grey - this is the classic heat damage caused by drought or root damage followed by high heat and excessive light.

However in this case we have something completely different and that is light bleaching.

light bleaching and light burn are two different things.

light bleaching is a defensive reaction to too much light when there is enough water to support transpiration and keep the plant cool.

light burn is an injury caused by too much light and/or radient heat when there isn't enough water to support tanspiration to keep the plant cool - thereby resulting in tissue damage.

Basically what happens with light bleaching is the plant does not produce cholorophyl in the new growth - it's trying to lower it's absorption of light.

the term is somewhat of a misnomer as really what is happening is new growth without cholorphyl as opposed to existing growth that looses it's cholorphyl.

-joe

[Green Supreme]

Hmmm.Too much light.Never heard of that one.How do you think your 150 watt HID compares Lumen wise to the big bulb in the sky.More possibly excess heat than excess light.The only time I can recall to much light migh have been taking indoor plants and putting them in the sun before hardening.Just a thought GS

[CottonBalls]

I wish you guys would get over the idea you can have too much light.

Do you really think your little bitty 150 will outdo the sun ?

You have overnuted your plant, and you have pics of other plants on this site that are also over nuted.
(example: http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/attachment.php?attachmentid=3938&d=1154018668 )

You know (of course you do) that giving too much of any one sort of nute can and will cause a lockout of other *stuff* such as mag, N, cal, moly, P, and so many more I can't even begin.

http://www.cannabis-world.org/cw/showthread.php?p=22253#post22253
Please check that out, Mari lives in the *edited for his anonymity* desert where this plant is growing in 110*F+ temps and it has probably seen in excess of 115*F.
Please read the thread and note he has it on straight water only in poor akaline soil.
I daresay both the heat and the light are vastly greater than anything you can produce with your little 150.

AS THE TEMPS AND LIGHT LEVELS GO UP THE PLANTS NUTE NEEDS GO DOWN!

The plant absorbs nutrients from light.
Please, find some obscure passage that proves otherwise.

You have classic nute lockout from over nuting, you might WANT to believe otherwise......but hey dumbshit, I'm only TRYING to help you grow a healthier plant.

[joe6pack]

ok cotton balls I'm through with you

I treated you with respect and thanked you for your advice and explained what I had learned. - instead of being constructive and doing the research I did on horticultural sites that indicate light bleaching can occur and it is different then light/heat burn you come back with an attack telling me all my plants are "over ferted", diss my growing style, diss the wattage I use, and finish by calling me a dumbass :bs:

well f*ck you too :wagass:

- I hope that makes you happy - You're the first person here on C-W that has driven me to anger - congradulations

NFM EOM and a big middle finger to you

[CottonBalls]

Enjoy your mids.

[meduser]

Signs of heat stress can look a lot like nutrient burn, except it occurs only on the top of the plant closest to the lamps. A yellowing of the upper leaves/buds is usually a bleaching from being too close to HID lights.

[dcyans]

Plants in no way absorb nutrients from light (light aids nutrient assimilation) but if light is in short supply then you will have uptake problems (refer to "Blackman's Law"). Plants will process more with higher levels of light so actually all other parameters must also be increased or the use of the extra lumens will become very inefficient. BTW CottonBalls a slight tip burn is a great aid in determining that you are at the upper limits for nutrient concentrations once this is established then we lower the nutrient slightly 100 PPM at a time record this for your records when working with this particular strain (it's a good thing) and a well know tip used by many of my fellow commercial growers (Nug Masters). GL guys

[CottonBalls]

Lemme pop a couple lines and a link up here for all of you.
These are not my words, they are from the Oregon state University....(check the link).

Fertilizers are not plant food! Plants produce their own food from water, carbon dioxide, and solar energy through photosynthesis

Anything that reduces or stops sugar production in leaves can lower nutrient absorption. Thus, if a plant is under stress because of low light or extreme temperatures, nutrient deficiency may develop.

Up to a point, the more sunlight a plant receives, the greater its capacity for producing food via photosynthesis.

Read it yourselves.....here
http://extension.oregonstate.edu/mg/botany/env_factors.html
I have a feeling they know more than you do since this is from a college botany course.

[CottonBalls]

Please, tell me I am mistaken some more....I really want to hear you fucking dumbshits say so.

[spaceman]

I got my banjo and a bottle of black velvet anyone??

[The Cannarchist]

Now now CB......you have to admit that you do not know everything.

Shall we do this rationally?Without reverting to the obsenities? I know you can do it.

We'll never be able to teach with that attitide.

[The Cannarchist]

I got my Uke and a bottle of Jamesons.....Does that count?

[CottonBalls]

I obviously know what I'm talking about as there is the link from a university course backing my every word.

If I don't know something I will say so, straight up.

If I'm right and I know it and someone says I'm wrong (rudely I might add) it is IN YOUR FACE MUTHAFUCKER!

[spaceman]

took 2 years of uni decided it was bullshit after dropping loads of lsd...
if you want to learn do it...listen watch and most important love what you are doing..

yeppers lets jump the rails and blow this joint....

[CottonBalls]

Ah Vapor meant 'Banjo' not 'bango'.....I was wondering.

I have a 1962 Harmony archtone, the only question is 'can you keep up?'.

[spaceman]

whiskey or rum
thanks harvest is taking a toll on my spelling!!!
ps joe your plants look fantastic!!

[CottonBalls]

I only drink Makers Mark whiskey or Pyrat rum.....I guess that leaves me out.

[spaceman]

rum turns me into a pirate anyways, good for the youngfellars though....

[plantbuilder]

you are wrong dude

[CottonBalls]

Yea, but you don't matter

[plantbuilder]

longevity is key

[dcyans]

Lemme pop a couple lines and a link up here for all of you.
These are not my words, they are from the Oregon state University....(check the link).







Read it yourselves.....here
http://extension.oregonstate.edu/mg/botany/env_factors.html
I have a feeling they know more than you do since this is from a college botany course.

Again read up about "Blackmans Law" your link basically reiterates the point. I really cannot understand how you cannot understand what is being said in your link? 17 element are needed for healthy growth which are found in well balanced soils and let me remind you soils can easily be depleted of necessary elements remember back in the thirties and I'm not talking the dust bowl either. In hydro there is no soil at all so where does the nutrients come from....you got it fertilizers (nutrient solution). Understanding is more important than simply reading. Experience is the best teacher. GL guys I'm done with this childish nonsense.

[leroy]

Man, you guy's can be brutal. Here is the same strain woodhorse t.w./VanWreck at day 41. I took the pics today. I had it too close to the 400 watters for a week or so, not above it, next to it. A little bit of mites too if you look close. I sprayed with Safer's soap. Damn Borg alway's shows late in flower. Looking good Joe.