STS & Colliodal Silver for Femmed Seeds

[Glass Man]

Hello Everyone,
I'm glad to be back amongst "family". I hope you have all been happy, tending the gardens and keeping that spiritual buzz alive.

I've been working on making beans and also studying up on doing the sex reversal thing. I'm planning to try the C. Silver first, because I have it one hand and also because it seems safer.

I'll be trying to fem the beta test plants Dman gifted me, X13/Thai x City Lights. The seedlings are in about week 2 of 12/12. The clones from all of them are vegging nicely in 4" pots, and it is these which I'll be trying to femm.
After that I'm planning to work with (femming) the Golden Haze (Dr GT) compact/heavy pheno which I was able to SOG and finished in 75 days from clone. It is definitely worthy of isolating, preserving, and sharing. I will also be using it for a number of other breeding projects, aiming to utilize it's heavy raw sativa potency to combine with sweet tasting and mellower strains, striving to create hybrid vigor and a great combination between flavor and a sativa dom friendly, creative, energetic, and spiritual high.

I'm interested in any and all info about femming and breeding.

Peace,
GM

[Reverend Budbreath]

I want to sound a warning about S1 seeds (feminized using STS spray).

I recently had a room full of females get pollinated by a rogue plant in the room which was an S1. It "hermied" in a big way at the worst possible time, spontaneously changing practically overnight into being a half-male plant. It nearly ruined the whole room, and did seed out all the girls in the room. A little more pollen and the the whole room would have been junk only good for making tincture or cookies. As it was, I barely salvaged the project, and took a significant lo$$.

The worst part was, the plant that did it was thrown in as an extra, an afterthought, just a lone seed included to get a couple of extra ounces. Instead it cost me ounces. I threw away all S1 seed I had been holding onto immediately after this incident.

I'm not saying that all S1 seed will do this, just that I learned (the hard way) that S1 seed is capable of doing this. I have seen other S1 plants work fine, especially the jojorizo Trainwreck S1s. I'm just sayin', think twice before letting S1 plants have access to an entire grow, as it just might freak out on you and cause a disaster.

[Glass Man]

Rev,
Thanks for the warning. Are you sure the S1 which caused the pollen assault in your growroom was produced using STS? I've heard of some people making "femmed" beans using hermie pollen, that would clearly produce hermie offspring.

Btw, I don't know what I was thinking when I said I would try feminizing the X13/Thai x City Lights, it's a fine plant but I had good breeeding males which made plenty of pollen. I'll only be going to the trouble of sex reversal with a couple of extraordinary females which have no mates.

Peace,

[Reverend Budbreath]

Yes I'm sure. It ws made by a member of the former CW site, Cabbageman1969. He made loads of these and was giving them away like candy. I'm sure some of it was fine, but some of it clearly was not. I had S1 seeds of his (of other strains) do weird things as well... runts, mutants, etc.

[Knucklehead]

Hiya Rev, Good to read ya. Hey, care to fill us in on the hybrid that caused the mishap? I have the (GF x NL) x Trainwreck finishing as we speak & all is well with them. I have (GF x NL) x Bubba vegging & gave away the Ortega cross. So far( fingers crossed ) the Trainwreck cross is amazing, & the Bubba cross looks sweet.
The Grapefruit x Northern Lights from Chimera was an amazing strain. Big trich coated buds & fairly potent even by my standards. I selected a pheno that was SPG dominant & have had her for 2-3 years . I sent the cut to Cabby & he reversed it to make these seeds. So far mine have performed well & the TW cross will be cut this weekend.
I select for potency first & hope the TW cross is a winner, because the yield is great. As with anything else sex reversal is risky at best. STP even stated that concerning all of his Rev-Gen works.

[Dman]

Hi Rev,

If you get herms from S1's, then the selection of the pollen donor was flawed. Before making any selection of potential STS reversal targets, you MUST stress test the parent plant to make sure there's absolutely no chance of herming. If that Fem'd plant herm'd on ya, then obviuosly, the breeder didn't follow that fundamental rule. ;)

I want to sound a warning about S1 seeds (feminized using STS spray).

I recently had a room full of females get pollinated by a rogue plant in the room which was an S1. It "hermied" in a big way at the worst possible time, spontaneously changing practically overnight into being a half-male plant. It nearly ruined the whole room, and did seed out all the girls in the room. A little more pollen and the the whole room would have been junk only good for making tincture or cookies. As it was, I barely salvaged the project, and took a significant lo$$.

The worst part was, the plant that did it was thrown in as an extra, an afterthought, just a lone seed included to get a couple of extra ounces. Instead it cost me ounces. I threw away all S1 seed I had been holding onto immediately after this incident.

I'm not saying that all S1 seed will do this, just that I learned (the hard way) that S1 seed is capable of doing this. I have seen other S1 plants work fine, especially the jojorizo Trainwreck S1s. I'm just sayin', think twice before letting S1 plants have access to an entire grow, as it just might freak out on you and cause a disaster.

[plantbuilder]

my vision s1's hemmed on me lol (not majorly though)
seriously put down the chem's and back away slowly
all in all they a fun go but please i don't wan't to see any hybrids of them
the massive circulation of s1 clones via the cali circuit carries some rather detremental repercussions that few have foreseen and even less seem to care about.
silver dollar for your thoughts dman
peace.
pb

[Dman]

Hi pb,

Again.....fully stress testing the parent donor should aviod any herm's in the S1 offspring...unless the herm trait was extremely resessive and not readily shown thru stress testing. I've grown out VT many times, and have never seen a herm...or a single male flower for that matter. But, that doesn't mean the trait is not locked deep within the genes somewhere that will manifest itself under the right conditions....remeber this is a Thai cross afterall ;) I also have to disagrree...I for one would love to see more S1 Hybrids out there. As long as the breeders are doing things the right way (stess testing ALL parents and targets), the possibilities for S1 Hybrids are endless IMHO! :)

my vision s1's hemmed on me lol (not majorly though)
seriously put down the chem's and back away slowly
all in all they a fun go but please i don't wan't to see any hybrids of them
the massive circulation of s1 clones via the cali circuit carries some rather detremental repercussions that few have foreseen and even less seem to care about.
silver dollar for your thoughts dman
peace.
pb

[plantbuilder]

are you sure you don't mean you want hybrids of clones that are s1 tested or even seedlots that are s1 tested to prove lack of recessive hem traits?
you want hybrids of plantys containing recombinant recessive traits?
i hope for the former.
peace.
pb

[Dman]

Hi pb,

IMHO...you have to work with "clones" that have been fully stress tested under multiple stress senarios over at least a few grows. If you've done your homewrok correctly, your S1 Hybrids should be herm free bro! :)

[plantbuilder]

nasty
does sourd herm under stress testing?

[Dman]

Hi pb,

From what I've seen and read...it doesn't take very much stress at all to herm SourD. Personally...I would be VERY weary of growing ANY SourD S1's! ;) I had the SourD clone and let it go for that exact reason. I don't care how elite a clone is, I don't have the time/space to waste on strains that herm...regardless of how good the end product may be. :)

[plantbuilder]

so provided sufficient s1 testing shows plantys that are similar to the parent stock and no hermaphroditic tendecies we are good to go? selling the next chemical treatment of that parent stock that is?
do you think reversing the male to be beneficial as well besides s1 progeny testing?
dman you support the idea of releasing s1 stock, for what purpose?
peace.
pb

[Dman]

Hi pb,

The only way that I know of reversing a male is a natural course. According to DJ Short, these reversed males are rare, but should also result in all female off-spring. My personal testing of a naturally reversed male shows that hypothosis to be flawed. :(

The only reason I support the release of FULLY tested S1's is specificly for med growers who are bound by plant numbers. Take me as a prime example...I'm legal for 30 plants indoors, but had no clone/mother stock to start with. I had no choice but to go over my limit with regular seed-stock, then weed out the males to get my numbers down where they should be. With S1 seed, I would have been able to start with 30 seeds, and end up with 30 fem's from the get-go...and no worries about being over my limit. :kind:

so provided sufficient s1 testing shows plantys that are similar to the parent stock and no hermaphroditic tendecies we are good to go? selling the next chemical treatment of that parent stock that is?
do you think reversing the male to be beneficial as well besides s1 progeny testing?
dman you support the idea of releasing s1 stock, for what purpose?
peace.
pb

[plantbuilder]

yah but you have vision cutting and all i got is these crappy vs1's
peace
pb

[Dman]

Hi pb,

Well....all I can say is that I've let VT go all the way to 75 days with no signs of herms at all. No disrespect meant, but could your environment have had anything to do with it....heat, light leaks...etc? IMO...all Cannabis plants carry the herm trait and if not specificly tested for ALL concieveable stress factors, one could have easily be missed. But, I didn't breed them, so I can't say for sure Bro? ;)

[vapor]

almost all thai carry the herm..
the vt had it bred out of her... but i have seen her bink in sever conditions.
the vt s1 showed many realy cool freaks!!!

[plantbuilder]

so you enjoyed the high of all the vs1 progeny? (critically speaking of course)
i have yet to put mine to the acid test.
i have other observations that make me want to kill them
peace
pb

[vapor]

it is a double edged sword, on one hand some of the plants looked horid, a couple of them were better in high than the vt cut but lacked in the structure depo...

[plantbuilder]

i think the freak is the keeper but you gonna knock her lol and say its for the good of my garden?

[vapor]

depends on what your goals are i guess. if i was just going for high i would pick the freak.youll just have to smok em and see..

[plantbuilder]

s1 gen and even further s2 etc is still a random assortment of a fixed gene set, grow 30 s1 beans and likely get 10 unprofitable plants

even if we fix for trait 'Stoney' as whether it is SS, Ss, ss (it is likely ss in our vision scenario) we are still left 9 other chromosome pairings each with many traits that are subject to 25% recessive combination.

one thing that comes to mind is jlp saying his sweetskunk f1's smelling like burnt rubber lol which is just wrong lol definitely seeing some of that here in the vision s1's #2 #3 no smell etc

for fun...
the odds using ten pairs and nailing down AA BB CC DD EE FF GG HH II KK
(if it were that simple) in the first s1 gen from a heterozygous planty
...are one in one hundred million

if she was homozygous in say five pairings (basically only achievable through selfing w/o discussing landrace varieties) the odds of of the perfect planty are one in one thousand
you should be looking at 500 plantys with generally those five dominant traits in that population albeit
...but you are then subject to the random assorting of the five other pairs 25% of which will be unprofitable that takes you down to 375 workable self's coming out of this selfed 'imaginary fixed for five traits stock' were you to grow 1000 beans and purging the rest.
about 12 workable plants from 30.
for me it was 3/10

if dominance was all it took then the chances of finding a good S1 in cannabis could be as easy as one in twenty.
i wish it were that simple.
peace.
pb

the number ten is arbitrary of course
linked traits are still a rather under-developed topic
but hey why not ten of course... seems by developing these goals as vapor says we can learn more about where these traits eliminate themselves in selfed populations and develop tactics and genetic protocol from there.

if you think you can buy 30 s1,s2,s3 seeds and get 30 copies of the mother plant you are seriously misguided.
ppeace.

[plantbuilder]

so is it time to discuss reversed female pollen donors yet?
peace.
plantbuilder

[mace]

Interesting thread guys, just a short question:
Isn't STS stressing the plant, thus producing hermies?

[Dman]

Hi pb,

Isn't that what this thread is about...or are you talking about using S1 fem's as new pollen donors?

so is it time to discuss reversed female pollen donors yet?
peace.
plantbuilder

Mace>>> STS is a chem treatment that inhibits Ethylene in the plant, thus producing male flowers on a female. You must stress test ALL STS pollen donors before treatment...thus weeeding out any herm potential.

[plantbuilder]

by glassman's post he is looking to make an s1 gen
i am talking about avoiding recombinant progeny by outcrossing or selectively inbreeding using reversed female pollen but not selfing
what are the possible benefits of this technique?
peace.
pb

[c-ray]

sts probably does things to plant dna that we simple humans are not aware of

[Dman]

Hi pb,

Again...when using the STS method, work only with the BEST pheno(s) to suit your needs. If you have the BEST pheno(s) with all the traits you're after, then there would be no need for any outcrossing or inbreeding to obtain your S1 generation.

by glassman's post he is looking to make an s1 gen
i am talking about avoiding recombinant progeny by outcrossing or selectively inbreeding using reversed female pollen but not selfing
what are the possible benefits of this technique?
peace.
pb

[plantbuilder]

i am done talking to you dman you are a putz
peace.
plantbuilder

[Glass Man]

As far as adequately stressing my chosen Best Pheno goes...I have been stressing this girl out continuously for about 4 years! She's never hermied at all. I've "done her wrong" so many ways, and so many times you could write a country music song about it!! LOL

I've froze her in the winters. I've sprayed her with crap which gave her spots. I've had her pH so far outa' wack that it would have killed a cockroach. She's had bugs.... She's one tough bitch. And she can make the stickiest densest heaviest sweet buds, from top to soil line once you learn how to treat her right.


Then my other babe is a wonderfully potent 100% pure sativa. She can make the gray haired hippies smile and laugh, just like the "good ole' days". But not only that she's easy to grow indoors, even SOG style. She makes phat thick buds as well as some of my indi hybrids, and can do it in 75 days. I haven't really stressed her out too much, since I have learnt how to properly treat a Lady. She demands the correct pH, but she's never shown me a nanner.

Peace,

[thai die]

its been my experience that moisture stress will flip a plant almost everytime, even the tough ones. id imagine there are plants that resist well, OlBlue i havent been able to produce pollen with yet.

edit, as far as testin before reversin

CBF

[Glass Man]

thai die,
You mean letting em wilt for water? That would make sense.

[thai die]

thai die,
You mean letting em wilt for water? That would make sense.

yeah, im just a beginner messin around, and been stressin plants lookin for ones that are resistant.

i let the fans droop right to the main stem and revive and that pretty much makes about any plant produce pollen and seed EVERYwhere, lol.

CBF

[Cosmo Kramer]

not sure if this helps anyone or not but heres my .02
in the past year ive had a little exp with femmed seeds.i grew out a bunch of cabby's beans.out of 50 or so beans i had one herm a little.i did get a few freaks that looked like a chemical burn or something.
on the calio.black widow,hash plant crossed with the hindu kush
each cross seemed to take after the mother side of the cross in growth,structure,smell and taste.but all seemed to have a slight similar undertone
i did the lui x gf/nl,it reminded me of lui but took 10 -11 weeks and molded from the inside
gf/nl s1's were very nice,they needed more veg time but still put it on for small plants.had a cpl pheno's,one smelled like bananas.
bubba x gf/nl,gave it a longer veg and it seemes like it might yield well.looks like bubba all around but maybe bigger buds,maybe added a week or so to the flower stage.shes at 8 1/2 weeks now and looks to need another week.
and just for research purposes i grew some ogers s2 from mota and 1 outa 5 hermed on me..
i agree on the parent selection weather is an s1 or a cross.herm traits can go undetected and get passed on un-knowingly
on the sour d,i tried sts and got 100 % male but no pollen....
and ive never had her herm on me,and i stressed the hell out of her

[thai die]

hermed on me..
on the sour d,i tried sts and got 100 % male but no pollen....
and ive never had her herm on me,and i stressed the hell out of her

hey cosmo, sourDeez is the easiest plant ive come across to flip, skip one dark cycle, i set um off in the veg room durin the dark cycle, and place back in flower room next light cycle, and two days shes makin bananas. like you say though, the pollen is nonviable.

CBF

[Cosmo Kramer]

hey thai-die,ive heard a few people say that but i water,heat and light stressed and never got a nanner.i was growing with a guy and every time i went there all the plants were wilted(badly)and he would forget to turn off the over head light for a cpl days at a time.he was so half assed i had to let him go on his own.some people just dont wanna listen.he was also famous for the six week harvest.lol.

[kephra]

I'd like to point out that with all the talk of herms, freaks and mutants you will find the exact same things in natural seeds. I've found many, many of them. :p

by glassman's post he is looking to make an s1 gen
i am talking about avoiding recombinant progeny by outcrossing or selectively inbreeding using reversed female pollen but not selfing
what are the possible benefits of this technique?
peace.
pb

I 90% sure that Jackstraw is doing a Jacki-O project using reverse pollen on sister plants. I'm not sure how far along he is with it.

I've read that continued selfing of generations is not too good of a thing because of it's diocieous nature. Supposedly even though you test for herm traits on your donors, increased selfing (S2, S3,S4...), will make the offspring all the more prone to hermaphrodism. By reading into it I would expect the same from the model that PB is referring to.

[nadie_ats]

Hello, I am a Spanish cultivator, I am making the experiment with (STS) formulates it is very simple to make if already the purchases diluted silver nitrate and sodium thiosulfate to 0,1Mol. Single the ace to mix to a proportion of 1:4. (for example: 20 mililiter to silver nitrate and 80ml sodium thiosulfate) Silver thiosulfate to diluting with but distilled water 1:9 (for example: 100 mililiter to silver thiosulfate and 900ml distilled water)

But the important thing is the plant that does not have characteristics of hermaphrodism, reason why many sativas are discarded of base.

That way there is a store that sells this material:
http://www.photoformulary.com/

Greetings and you pardon my ingles :P.

[cabron]

Hey guys
Those beans made from the Sensi Hindu Kush momma have indeed been a bad decision ,,I was hoping that Sensi had been breeding with much better stock,as the recessive traits have surfaced resulting in weird bleached white leaves in some phenos,and some general shitty phenos.

I've really enjoyed the F1's made from the GF/NL momma and sts,the crosses with Bubba,Arcata TW,Ortega were all exceptional I have yet to try any of the LUI F1's.

I'd recommend against popping any of the femmed Hindu Kush beans unless the Bubbleberry from Dman are used,the shit phenos seem to be far less and his selection of Bubblegum seems to come through strongly..

Dman has always chosen great specimens in my experience.

There are some killer phenos in that TW cross....I wish I still had some
Knucklehead may have some pics,,massive colas with heavy sat leanings with a quick finish.

[Kaliman]

Hi pb,

The only way that I know of reversing a male is a natural course. According to DJ Short, these reversed males are rare, but should also result in all female off-spring. My personal testing of a naturally reversed male shows that hypothosis to be flawed. :(

The only reason I support the release of FULLY tested S1's is specificly for med growers who are bound by plant numbers. Take me as a prime example...I'm legal for 30 plants indoors, but had no clone/mother stock to start with. I had no choice but to go over my limit with regular seed-stock, then weed out the males to get my numbers down where they should be. With S1 seed, I would have been able to start with 30 seeds, and end up with 30 fem's from the get-go...and no worries about being over my limit. :kind:

I've had a male that showed a few pistils around a male flower,the only one I found though and was the male used in a Cheese x Skunk#1 backcross and I've done 2 subsequent backcrosses and have had no hermaphrodites.My male/female populations don't seem to be affected so maybe DJ Short misread things due to low plant numbers, dunno?

I've got the pic somewhere, I'll see if I can dig it out?

[Alchemist]

I've had a male that showed a few pistils around a male flower,the only one I found though and was the male used in a Cheese x Skunk#1 backcross and I've done 2 subsequent backcrosses and have had no hermaphrodites.My male/female populations don't seem to be affected so maybe DJ Short misread things due to low plant numbers, dunno?

I've got the pic somewhere, I'll see if I can dig it out?


I had a dj short blueberry male from old stock that had one branch go female due to a light leak. I made several seeds with it and after testing many batches now I can say that
1. only one cross produced hermaphrodites ( ~30%) and the mom of that cross a strawberry diesel clone does throw the odd naner from stress. The non-herm plants are great from this cross as well.
2. male/female ratios were not affected IMO on the rest of the crosses.


As far as the STS goes.... I don't support the sale of all feminized seeds but can see where some growers would prefer this where clones aren't available. I don't think it is bad for the genepool overall as long as true school breeders keep old lines pure through open pollinations for preservation.

If we relied on the commercial industry to maintain the genepool there wouldnt be anything but dutch hybrids and s1's. People all over have their own strains and know how to keep them true.

I like to mess around with closet breeding and trying many kinds making hybrids etc.. I will even make some seeds with s1 plants, however i wont be selling them and most likely only myself or a few close friends will ever try them. Just for experimenting and playing around. I won't put all my eggs in that basket though, I will always make straight hybrids as well. Plus to really contribute to some preservation Im going to do some open pollinations on old landrace lines no matter how unsuited they are for todays indoor cultivation which values "bling" trichomes that look shiny. lol

PEACE

[c-ray]

I've been noticing that there are folks out there making regular male-female hybrids using females found in some s1 seeds and selling these seeds...imho this is a poor practice as the production of s1 seeds using STS takes the pollen donor near the point of death to create pollen and the generation of new seeds imho is something that should involve ever increasing quality of life.. nature has provided us with a perfectly good mechanism to create more life and life that is more fit to survive in a particular environment, by inserting this message of a near death into the creation of life is something that gets encoded into the seed and imho will only lead to problems down the road... or to put it another way when I participate in a pollination for me it is like watching and experiencing a marriage between plants, like a celebration with a message of joy being encoded into the seed
it may sound strange but I think some folks out there will understand where I am coming from but my guess is there will be more and more attracted to the fact that it is an easy shortcut to take the male out of the equation

[Green Supreme]

Bigger, faster, stronger hmm. Doesn't sound like they want cannabis, sounds like they want the bionic man teehee. Folks are in such a hurry. Peace GS

[Senor Slippers]

Great to see this topic still being discussed...
How's the colloidal silver treating you people ??

Here's some recently germinated Shrom X ECSD F1's
from Cabron....

Also some ECSD S1's that he made as well...

The Genuine ECSD cut was used..

I like what I'm seeing so far and have had 100 %
germination.